Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?

[Johnny English]

Unless Saleh found an OC who could basically be the head coach of half of the team this season was screwed

This is the model employed by most teams in the league, it's just that they mostly flip offense and defense. I'm very sure that Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan don't have much to do with decisions on the defensive side of the ball.

[bojanglesman]

No QB would be successful behind our patchwork offensive line.

True.

Their jobs are almost certainly gone after this season which makes me worried that they are going to do some stupid excrement, e.g.: trade for Bakhtiari and Adams or add some void years onto contracts we should never extend like with Uzomah, Mosely, and Tomlinson.

Whoever has the reigns in 2025 is going to have a nice hole to dig themselves out of.

Unless we make the playoffs.  I think we have a good shot if Rodgers stays healthy.

[CatoTheElder]

This is the model employed by most teams in the league, it's just that they mostly flip offense and defense. I'm very sure that Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan don't have much to do with decisions on the defensive side of the ball.

I'd be hard pressed to believe that Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan wouldn't be in Steve Spagnuolo or Steve Wilk's derriere if they were constantly putting their offense in poor alignments or leading the league in pre-snap penalties.

The expectation is never for a head coach to be involved with the minor details of every side of the ball. It's for them to hold their coordinators accountable instead of the "Well, that's Mike/Paul's department," attitude we are seeing from Saleh. The coaches who are uninterested or unwilling to get involved on the larger issues in the opposite side of the ball are the ones who fail.

EDIT: Wrong DC

[Heismanberg]

I think we have a good shot if Rodgers stays healthy.

It'll be a dog fight. 

Baltimore
Cincinnati
Pittsburgh
Cleveland
Kansas City
Los Angeles
Buffalo
Miami
Houston

Cincy gets Burrow back.  Los Angeles has Harbaugh now.  That's two teams that weren't really in our way this season. 

[MBGreen]

I'd be hard pressed to believe that Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan wouldn't be in Steve Spagnuolo or Joe Barry's derriere if they were constantly putting their offense in poor alignments or leading the league in pre-snap penalties.

The expectation is never for a head coach to be involved with the minor details of every side of the ball. It's for them to hold their coordinators accountable instead of the "Well, that's Mike/Paul's department," attitude we are seeing from Saleh. The coaches who are uninterested or unwilling to get involved on the larger issues in the opposite side of the ball are the ones who fail.

This

[Johnny English]

I'd be hard pressed to believe that Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan wouldn't be in Steve Spagnuolo or Joe Barry's derriere if they were constantly putting their offense in poor alignments or leading the league in pre-snap penalties.

The expectation is never for a head coach to be involved with the minor details of every side of the ball. It's for them to hold their coordinators accountable instead of the "Well, that's Mike/Paul's department," attitude we are seeing from Saleh. The coaches who are uninterested or unwilling to get involved on the larger issues in the opposite side of the ball are the ones who fail.

Yes. When your co-ordinator on the side of the ball you're not a specialist in sucks, you fire him. But as we all know, our circumstances are different. Saleh doesn't have a choice in that, for better or worse he's along for the ride that they all - Woody, Douglas, and him - chose to take. I know your views on that, but Saleh isn't failing to appropriately address the issue at OC. He literally can't now. His only real option would be to resign.

[CatoTheElder]

A healthy Rodgers with with better skill position players an improved line probably would have gotten us into the playoffs last season.

A healthy Rodgers with an improved line are facing an even more difficult AFC this season.

Something on this defense is going to fall off. Mosely is about to be 31, all of our safeties are UDFAs, our interior line depth is about to go away or it's about to eat into our EDGE depth which just creates another problem, all with a money shortage set for next season.

before you play the "cap isn't real" card remember we have to trust Joe Douglas to fix his own mess with these contracts, something he hasn't really shown aptitude in doing unless he's planning on moving some of the bigger ones via trade in which case please see above.

[CatoTheElder]

Yes. When your co-ordinator on the side of the ball you're not a specialist in sucks, you fire him. But as we all know, our circumstances are different. Saleh doesn't have a choice in that, for better or worse he's along for the ride that they all - Woody, Douglas, and him - chose to take. I know your views on that, but Saleh isn't failing to appropriately address the issue at OC. He literally can't now. His only real option would be to resign.

Firing the OC shouldn't be the first and only solution. If the World's Only Gold Member Fan needs training wheels to get the offense running properly then that should have been Saleh's priority, especially if firing him wasn't an option.

[Johnny English]

Where did I say that firing Hackett is the only solution?

I was replying to your assertion that Hackett wasn't capable of managing past the absence of Rodgers, which we all agree with. The point is that there was no alternative option, at least for Saleh. It would have required the entire team hierarchy to decide that it was bigger than Aaron Rodgers, which at this point it seems clear they are not willing to.

[CatoTheElder]

I was replying to your assertion that Hackett wasn't capable of managing past the absence of Rodgers, which we all agree with. The point is that there was no alternative option, at least for Saleh. It would have required the entire team hierarchy to decide that it was bigger than Aaron Rodgers, which at this point it seems clear they are not willing to.

You're talking to a different point. Hackett being excrement without Rodgers was always a given but the pre-snap penalties with the OLine, alignment issues with the WRs and the general lack of cohesion were problems that Rodgers could only impact by so much, especially the OLine. The fact that Saleh just let Hackett continue to fail without changing any part of how that department operated is telling about how in over his head Saleh is.

You're OLine can't stop beating themselves before the snap? I want your plan on how to fix it or I'm giving you the plan on how to fix it.
You're not pulling in your other assistants until Thursday to do game-planning? You're starting earlier and I'm sitting in on some of those (he probably should have been sitting in on some of those in the first place).

This is basic excrement.

[AlioTheFool]

Further to Cato's point, the fact that Hackett didn't have the staff watching film most of the time is just insane. Like mind-numbingly crazy. How does Saleh even allow that? How in the modern NFL world was that even a thing?!

Sorry, but while I can accept the idea that a DC HC shouldn't micromanage the offense, he's got to do something when it's as bad as it was this year. And then to see the no film watching thing is just the cherry on top of the excrement sundae.

[Johnny English]

You're talking to a different point. Hackett being excrement without Rodgers was always a given but the pre-snap penalties with the OLine, alignment issues with the WRs and the general lack of cohesion were problems that Rodgers could only impact by so much, especially the OLine. The fact that Saleh just let Hackett continue to fail without changing any part of how that department operated is telling about how in over his head Saleh is.

You're OLine can't stop beating themselves before the snap? I want your plan on how to fix it or I'm giving you the plan on how to fix it.
You're not pulling in your other assistants until Thursday to do game-planning? You're starting earlier and I'm sitting in on some of those (he probably should have been sitting in on some of those in the first place).

This is basic excrement.

It's basic management that goes on in every moderately well run department of every moderately well run business.

But the CEO doesn't pull the Sales Director of an underperfoming department and tell him how to improve his sales team. At a certain level, essential management skills are table stakes. If you don't do those things then you're fired.

[CatoTheElder]

It's basic management that goes on in every moderately well run department of every moderately well run business.

But the CEO doesn't pull the Sales Director of an underperfoming department and tell him how to improve his sales team. At a certain level, essential management skills are table stakes. If you don't do those things then you're fired.

Saleh isn't the CEO.

[Johnny English]

Saleh isn't the CEO.

All I've heard about for years is people wanting "a CEO type coach", I have issues with that but now we have one let's not start complaing about it.

[AlioTheFool]

All I've heard about for years is people wanting "a CEO type coach", I have issues with that but now we have one let's not start complaing about it.

In your previous post you said a CEO HC should fire a guy if he shows he doesn't have the skills to do his job. Well, Hackett quite clearly can't do the job. So people complaining that the CEO HC isn't acting like a CEO isn't wrong.

To back to my film harping, if a CEO learned his middle managers were canceling meetings to review market results and the respective teams that were skipping meetings were then going overbudget and not delivering, the CEO would be an idiot to let said manager continue to skip meetings.