Author Topic: From the River to the Sea  (Read 10455 times)

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SixFeetDeep

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2023, 01:29:06 PM »
People need to get it through their heads that this is not Israel vs Palestine.

This is hamas vs jews
This is a call for freaking genocide

https://twitter.com/CRYPTIDSandUFOs/status/1712804283337388367

I was looking this up earlier today, intifada doesn't seem to refer to a genocide. There is plenty of justified anger to go around, no need to buy into narratives that are actively trying to escalate violence around the globe.

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An intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is a rebellion or uprising, or a resistance movement. It is a key concept in contemporary Arabic usage referring to a legitimate uprising against oppression.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intifada

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The intifadas were two Palestinian uprisings against Israel, the first in the late 1980s and the second in the early 2000s. The intifadas had a dramatic effect on Israeli-Palestinian relations; the second, in particular, is widely seen as marking the end of the 1990s era negotiating process and ushering in a new, darker era in Israeli-Palestinian relations
https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080066/israel-palestine-intifadas-first-second

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a violent act of oppostion by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/intifada


I'm hosting a small Shabbat dinner tonight as I do almost every week for certain Jewish family and friends. In my circles, at least, the preeminent thoughts are around ways to minimize violence to civilians both in the short and long term. Apartheid regimes are brutal and despicable, terrorism attacking children even worse. I don't see how this specific Israeli military response results in a more peaceful future, nor do I think it targets the people who I suspect are most responsible (anti-Israeli agents in Iran and Qatar, and the myriad political entities behind the Iranian/Saudi conflicts). I have many friends who've spent considerable time in Israel, and the collective mourning among them for the combination of the humanitarian suffering on both sides of the border, and the loss of any degree of optimism around long-term de-escalation is brutal to be near. I personally don't see any remotely realistic, non-tragic continuation of what's happening, there is just absolutely no winning for the innocent, nor is there feasible retribution for the most villainous.

Best case (?) models to look toward are maybe some combination of the end of the Yugoslav wars, the Good Friday Agreement, and tragically/ironically the creation of Israel following mass displacement/death of a religious minority.


It will always be absolutely insane to me how much suffering the people of the middle east have gone through over the past thirty years next to the enormity of wealth that has been generated in the region. Just a failure of humanity.

insanity

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2023, 02:08:38 PM »
The majority of jews I know, myself included, have always had compassion for Palestine.  This is and always has been a very complicated issue where no sides hands are clean from blood.  Anyone who feels there is a clear protangonist isn't educated enough on the matter.

With that said, protesting for Palestine after these acts is rephrehensibe in my opi ion.  In this moment it's hard to not conflate those on these marches with being pro rape, murder, and torture.  If you are marching and anti hamas it feels very all lives very matter.

It's wonderful you open your home for shabbat to others.  Stay safe today.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 02:16:20 PM by insanity »

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2023, 04:08:45 PM »
An intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is a rebellion or uprising, or a resistance movement. It is a key concept in contemporary Arabic usage referring to a legitimate uprising against oppression.[1]

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080066/israel-palestine-intifadas-first-second


There sure were a lot of suicide bombings of trains, restaurants, and buses during the Second Intifada for an uprising. Maybe it's not an incitement to genocide full on but it's certainly a call for intentional violence against civilians. Like what happened last Saturday. Not a coincidence that the protestors are calling for an intifada along with chants of "from the river to the sea". You don't have to shield your eyes to want peace.


CatoTheElder

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2023, 09:11:26 PM »
People need to get it through their heads that this is not Israel vs Palestine.

This is hamas vs jews
This is a call for freaking genocide

https://twitter.com/CRYPTIDSandUFOs/status/1712804283337388367
And what is forcibly removing 1million people from their homes?
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MBGreen

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2023, 09:46:07 PM »
And what is forcibly removing 1million people from their homes?
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dcm1602

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2023, 12:05:54 AM »
And what is forcibly removing 1million people from their homes?

Removing 1 million people from their homes is the only way to safely destroy the Hamas infrastructure in Gaza which is the closest thing I've seen to an end goal (destroying all their weapon caches, tunnels, bunkers, etc)

Giving them 24 hours to do it is where your argument should be.

The alternative would be having a war with those million people used as human shields and potential casualties. Especially since Hamas loves to use them as human shields

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CatoTheElder

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2023, 01:57:06 AM »
Removing 1 million people from their homes is the only way to safely destroy the Hamas infrastructure in Gaza which is the closest thing I've seen to an end goal (destroying all their weapon caches, tunnels, bunkers, etc)

Giving them 24 hours to do it is where your argument should be.

The alternative would be having a war with those million people used as human shields and potential casualties. Especially since Hamas loves to use them as human shields

DCM: ethnic cleansing will solve the Hamas problem
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dcm1602

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2023, 02:04:56 AM »
DCM: ethnic cleansing will solve the Hamas problem

If there's a way to eliminate all the tunnels, weapon caches, and terrorist while there's 30,000-50,000 armed terrorist in an urban environment with at least 1 million radicalized civilians used as human shields and > 100 hostages the world would love to know it.

Again the majority of the (rational thinking) world agrees on the 24 hour thing. And it's very easy to say "no it's bad" and offer absolutely no alternatives

Especially with so many of these college kids who think the whole thing can be solved with a hug and a cup of cocoa

Regardless what I'm saying is literally what's actually happening, everyone's blowing Egypt to open a humanitarian corridor.

The 24 hour thing nobody here's arguing
« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 02:07:40 AM by dcm1602 »

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2023, 11:21:04 AM »
DCM: ethnic cleansing will solve the Hamas problem

Ethnic cleansing is now defined as "please move 5 miles out of the way so you do not die while terrorists are removed"

It's now been ~40 hours since the 24 hour warning, 5 days since evacuation notices started, and nothing new has happened, by the way. They keep delaying invasion to give civilians a chance to evacuate. Hamas is setting up checkpoints along the evacuation route in an attempt to stop people from leaving.

What army pauses their attacks and puts their soldiers at greater risk by warning the enemy as to try to give civilians a chance to leave? Every hour that Israel delays means more rocket attacks on home soil, gives Hamas more chance to lay traps for them in a ground operation, and reduces the chances of saving the hostages in Gaza. Hostages, including Americans, that you are continuing to pretend do not exist.

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2023, 12:00:36 PM »
Ethnic cleansing is now defined as "please move 5 miles out of the way so you do not die while terrorists are removed"

It's now been ~40 hours since the 24 hour warning, 5 days since evacuation notices started, and nothing new has happened, by the way. They keep delaying invasion to give civilians a chance to evacuate. Hamas is setting up checkpoints along the evacuation route in an attempt to stop people from leaving.

What army pauses their attacks and puts their soldiers at greater risk by warning the enemy as to try to give civilians a chance to leave? Every hour that Israel delays means more rocket attacks on home soil, gives Hamas more chance to lay traps for them in a ground operation, and reduces the chances of saving the hostages in Gaza. Hostages, including Americans, that you are continuing to pretend do not exist.

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dcm1602

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2023, 10:22:13 PM »
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/israel-says-hamas-blocking-safe-route-out-of-gaza/

Hamas literally setting up roadblocks to prevent people in Gaza from exiting the city. Israel  should've eliminated Hamas before asking people to leave Gaza, so they can eliminate Hamas.

Blatantly obvious ethnic cleansing

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Re: From the River to the Sea
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2023, 12:02:41 AM »
Ethnic cleansing is now defined as "please move 5 miles out of the way so you do not die while terrorists are removed"

It's now been ~40 hours since the 24 hour warning, 5 days since evacuation notices started, and nothing new has happened, by the way. They keep delaying invasion to give civilians a chance to evacuate. Hamas is setting up checkpoints along the evacuation route in an attempt to stop people from leaving.

What army pauses their attacks and puts their soldiers at greater risk by warning the enemy as to try to give civilians a chance to leave? Every hour that Israel delays means more rocket attacks on home soil, gives Hamas more chance to lay traps for them in a ground operation, and reduces the chances of saving the hostages in Gaza. Hostages, including Americans, that you are continuing to pretend do not exist.

https://warisboring.com/israel-accused-of-using-white-phosphorus-in-gaza/

Yup, absolutely nothing. Definitely not a sustained air assault that has killed 1,500 Palestinian civilians. But hey, their tanks aren't fast enough to reach the city yet so whatever.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2023, 12:05:01 AM by CatoTheElder »
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