Author Topic: Coronavirus SZN Forever  (Read 359874 times)

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bojanglesman

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3045 on: November 18, 2020, 08:27:36 AM »

Badger

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3046 on: November 18, 2020, 08:28:48 AM »
You thought the anti-maskers on the internet were annoying?

2021: Rise of the Anti-Vaxxers
Mandatory viewing

https://twitter.com/AndreaRussett/status/1323878382975676417?s=19

SixFeetDeep

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3047 on: November 18, 2020, 08:29:46 AM »
"All freaking....prohibited without full body condom."







I can’t get off without ritualistic chanting so I’ll have to remain abstinent
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SixFeetDeep

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3048 on: November 18, 2020, 08:31:53 AM »
Mandatory viewing

https://twitter.com/AndreaRussett/status/1323878382975676417?s=19

I thought I posted that but I think I went into a coma after viewing
My dad always says he's undefeated at tailgating

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Johnny English

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3049 on: November 18, 2020, 08:44:41 AM »
You thought the anti-maskers on the internet were annoying?

2021: Rise of the Anti-Vaxxers

The suggestion I've heard is that in Ontario we'll have our health cards tagged once we've been vaccinated, and that you will need to show your health card to be allowed to do things like enter a restaurant, movie theatre or gym. So if people want to not get the vaccine we can't pin them down and shove it in their arm, we just won't let them rejoin society.

Personally I'd go a bit further and say that polling cards for any election will only be provided to people who have been vaccinated. If you choose not to fulfil your part of the social contract, then you forfeit your right to have a say in how society is run.
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CatoTheElder

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3050 on: November 18, 2020, 08:46:03 AM »
Mandatory viewing

https://twitter.com/AndreaRussett/status/1323878382975676417?s=19

I feel like I’ve been watching this for months, but it could just be that it’s been on my feeds 1,000 times every day since it’s been posted.

I’ll never understand why people  are so willing to believe that the Gov’t will bother manufacturing some kind of tracking chip to implant in people with a syringe when we willingly stand in line for hours to spend hundreds of dollars on a device that’s perfectly suited for tracking and we’ll get nervous about being away from for more than 5 minutes.
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MBGreen

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3051 on: November 18, 2020, 08:54:44 AM »
The suggestion I've heard is that in Ontario we'll have our health cards tagged once we've been vaccinated, and that you will need to show your health card to be allowed to do things like enter a restaurant, movie theatre or gym. So if people want to not get the vaccine we can't pin them down and shove it in their arm, we just won't let them rejoin society.

Personally I'd go a bit further and say that polling cards for any election will only be provided to people who have been vaccinated. If you choose not to fulfil your part of the social contract, then you forfeit your right to have a say in how society is run.

I like this post a lot.
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Jumbo

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3052 on: November 18, 2020, 12:40:51 PM »
The suggestion I've heard is that in Ontario we'll have our health cards tagged once we've been vaccinated, and that you will need to show your health card to be allowed to do things like enter a restaurant, movie theatre or gym. So if people want to not get the vaccine we can't pin them down and shove it in their arm, we just won't let them rejoin society.

Personally I'd go a bit further and say that polling cards for any election will only be provided to people who have been vaccinated. If you choose not to fulfil your part of the social contract, then you forfeit your right to have a say in how society is run.

ok I just hope you don't pretend to believe in bodily autonomy then

Johnny English

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3053 on: November 18, 2020, 12:54:33 PM »
ok I just hope you don't pretend to believe in bodily autonomy then

Sure I do. I think I've made it very clear that I'm not intending to force anyone to have the vaccine, I'm just saying that if they refuse then we can't allow them to interact with other people. It's no different to not allowing people into a pub if they're already too drunk, or not wearing clothes, or carrying a gun.
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Jumbo

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3054 on: November 18, 2020, 01:07:18 PM »
Sure I do. I think I've made it very clear that I'm not intending to force anyone to have the vaccine, I'm just saying that if they refuse then we can't allow them to interact with other people. It's no different to not allowing people into a pub if they're already too drunk, or not wearing clothes, or carrying a gun.

"Get the vaccine or you can't rejoin society in any facet" is a lot different from getting kicked out of the pub. Do X or you can't participate in society is about as close to forcing without an explicit mandate as you'll ever get, especially on a social species who inherently want to do, you know, societal things. You've also jumped a step further and included voting in there, so even if you want to forfeit you right to do anything in society for the rest of time you also can't get your voice heard by anyone who might have the power to change that on this or any other issue.

"I've made it very clear that you're not forced to stay in solitary confinement for the entire rest of your prison stay, but you must do xyz" is normally considered a violation of human rights, but these are unusual times, after all.

Badger

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3055 on: November 18, 2020, 01:15:45 PM »
Disenfranchising people is always bad, as a general rule.

Johnny English

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3056 on: November 18, 2020, 01:24:14 PM »
"Get the vaccine or you can't rejoin society in any facet" is a lot different from getting kicked out of the pub. Do X or you can't participate in society is about as close to forcing without an explicit mandate as you'll ever get, especially on a social species who inherently want to do, you know, societal things. You've also jumped a step further and included voting in there, so even if you want to forfeit you right to do anything in society for the rest of time you also can't get your voice heard by anyone who might have the power to change that on this or any other issue.

"I've made it very clear that you're not forced to stay in solitary confinement for the entire rest of your prison stay, but you must do xyz" is normally considered a violation of human rights, but these are unusual times, after all.

I think that it's pretty clear that in any reasonable society the removal of the vote from a legal citizen is not a viable action, so if the hyperbole in my post wasn't apparent I apologise. I'll be more clear next time.

That said, the refusal to be vaccinated against a disease that so far has killed over a million people globally isn't really something that can be allowed to simply ride as a matter of personal choice. We exact all sorts of requirements upon people as conditions of participating in society; if you actively choose to be a willing potential carrier of a deadly virus, then you can't squeal about muh rights when society chooses to exclude you. You have the right to catch covid if you wish, but you don't have the right to spread it to others when the means to prevent that happening are being made available to you.

I'm curious - are you arguing this as a point of principle, or are you personally opposed to taking this vaccine?
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CatoTheElder

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3057 on: November 18, 2020, 01:41:22 PM »
Your run of the mill anit-vaxxer spouse and kids in the Navy are required to be registered on base and are barred from using any facilities with the exception, I believe, of the Commissary. Otherwise they have to go out in town to use a gym, barber...etc.

I’m not sure if that is a DoD level instruction or if the other branches have different rules.

Just throwing that out there.
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Jumbo

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3058 on: November 18, 2020, 01:43:45 PM »
I think that it's pretty clear that in any reasonable society the removal of the vote from a legal citizen is not a viable action, so if the hyperbole in my post wasn't apparent I apologise. I'll be more clear next time.

That said, the refusal to be vaccinated against a disease that so far has killed over a million people globally isn't really something that can be allowed to simply ride as a matter of personal choice. We exact all sorts of requirements upon people as conditions of participating in society; if you actively choose to be a willing potential carrier of a deadly virus, then you can't squeal about muh rights when society chooses to exclude you. You have the right to catch covid if you wish, but you don't have the right to spread it to others when the means to prevent that happening are being made available to you.

I'm curious - are you arguing this as a point of principle, or are you personally opposed to taking this vaccine?

Point of principle. I have a lot of issues with how the virus and issues surrounding it have been treated by people at large.

I think the problem with the framing around this whole argument is that no one actively chooses to be the carrier of a virus. Vaccines aren't 100% efficacious, similar at a different scale to NPIs; you can "do everything right" and still catch a disease/become a carrier. The chances are ostensibly reduced, but they still exist, especially at something like a 90% rate of efficacy. 

So then it becomes a line-drawing problem. The vaccine is a good way to reduce the chances of spreading the virus to others, but so is the government walling everyone into their homes for the next year. All sorts of things can be mandated that would reduce the general public's chances of getting and spreading the virus. It should not be opposed that people get the vaccine; it should be opposed that governments mandate that they do, and I would consider not allowing people to do day-to-day things (even without the voting aspect) to effectively mandate it.

I also worry about a slippery slope, of sorts. In the US, Jacobson v. Mass in 1905 upheld a compulsory vaccination scheme - assuming the person would not be put at risk by taking it. 22 years later, in Buck v. Bell, this was cited as principle to justify a compulsory sterilization scheme: “The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes.” While that was 100 years ago, I worry that something similarly inhumane could happen today with a similar justification.

Johnny English

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Re: Coronavirus SZN Forever
« Reply #3059 on: November 18, 2020, 01:54:11 PM »
Point of principle. I have a lot of issues with how the virus and issues surrounding it have been treated by people at large.

I think the problem with the framing around this whole argument is that no one actively chooses to be the carrier of a virus. Vaccines aren't 100% efficacious, similar at a different scale to NPIs; you can "do everything right" and still catch a disease/become a carrier. The chances are ostensibly reduced, but they still exist, especially at something like a 90% rate of efficacy. 

So then it becomes a line-drawing problem. The vaccine is a good way to reduce the chances of spreading the virus to others, but so is the government walling everyone into their homes for the next year. All sorts of things can be mandated that would reduce the general public's chances of getting and spreading the virus. It should not be opposed that people get the vaccine; it should be opposed that governments mandate that they do, and I would consider not allowing people to do day-to-day things (even without the voting aspect) to effectively mandate it.

I also worry about a slippery slope, of sorts. In the US, Jacobson v. Mass in 1905 upheld a compulsory vaccination scheme - assuming the person would not be put at risk by taking it. 22 years later, in Buck v. Bell, this was cited as principle to justify a compulsory sterilization scheme: “The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes.” While that was 100 years ago, I worry that something similarly inhumane could happen today with a similar justification.

I think a lot of that's fair.

To the point of efficacy, of course the vaccine doesn't guarantee that someone won't catch the disease or transmit it, but it does massively reduce the chances of both. Even the 5-10% of people for whom it doesn't work are significantly protected by the 90-95% of people for whom it does; if you get the vaccine and unbeknown to you are still susceptible, the fact that most other people you come into contact with are immune means that your chances of getting it are massively reduced. This is the point of the flu vaccine, just because you don't care if you catch flu doesn't mean you shouldn't have it. You get the vaccine so you won't pass it to someone who can't take the vaccine because of their underlying conditions that make it a much more serious thing for them, and as we have seen this is a more serious and more infectious illness than flu.

I understand the point about the slippery slope, but I don't know that I buy it. If we're going to have such a fight over such a stupidly obvious thing as taking a well studied and researched vaccine for a global pandemic, I find it hard to believe that it's going to be an easy stepping stone to anything else.
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