Designated Hitters Make Baseball Better

[Italian Seafood]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-the-dh-rule-bane-of-baseball-purists-slowing-the-game-down/

Not really a valid argument when it’s a matter of minutes either way you slice it.

I wasn't referring to the length of the game as much as the overall dullness of a lineup with no pitcher's spot to manage around. The pitchers only bat one or two times per game at the most anymore, but the existence of the spot in the lineup brings the benches and strategy into the game from the 5th inning on, sometimes earlier. So stating how bad pitchers are at betting doesn't help your argument, it helps mine, because the whole point is you have to do something with that spot as the game moves along.

[AlioTheFool]

As much as I talk smack about the NL, I really don't care that they don't have a DH. EXCEPT when they're playing an AL team--regardless of who is the home team.

Beyond the fact that I find absolutely no entertainment in watching pitchers hit, double-switches, whatever, AL pitchers don't regularly hit or run the bases. They only practice these things when they're preparing for interleague play. The chance of injury goes up for them, and that's the entirety of my issue with it.

They should let the NL continue to have pitchers hit, but whenever it's an interleague game, regardless of the home park, there should be a DH in effect. That solves every problem other than strict NL fans being upset about losing some "advantage" at home. But it's how the minor leagues work anyway.

[AlioTheFool]

I wasn't referring to the length of the game as much as the overall dullness of a lineup with no pitcher's spot to manage around. The pitchers only bat one or two times per game at the most anymore, but the existence of the spot in the lineup brings the benches and strategy into the game from the 5th inning on, sometimes earlier. So stating how bad pitchers are at betting doesn't help your argument, it helps mine, because the whole point is you have to do something with that spot as the game moves along.

As opposed to the strategy a pitcher and catcher must employ all game long because there isn't an automatic out installed into every lineup for AL teams?

[Italian Seafood]

As opposed to the strategy a pitcher and catcher must employ all game long because there isn't an automatic out installed into every lineup for AL teams?

Again you're focused on 1-2 plate appearances per team out of roughly 40, at the expense of a lot of strategy and an extra dimension to the whole game. And in those 1-2 plate appearances, the pitcher has a 80% chance of being an out instead of a 75% chance.

[SixFeetDeep]

I wasn't referring to the length of the game as much as the overall dullness of a lineup with no pitcher's spot to manage around. The pitchers only bat one or two times per game at the most anymore, but the existence of the spot in the lineup brings the benches and strategy into the game from the 5th inning on, sometimes earlier. So stating how bad pitchers are at betting doesn't help your argument, it helps mine, because the whole point is you have to do something with that spot as the game moves along.

I don’t watch baseball for the entertainment of a manager’s pitching staff decisions, I watch for the athletes. I think baseball manager is the least important coach in all of the major sports and breaking down their bullpen management every day over the course of an 162 game season is for the Facebook fans

[Italian Seafood]

I don’t watch baseball for the entertainment of a manager’s pitching staff decisions, I watch for the athletes. I think baseball manager is the least important coach in all of the major sports and breaking down their bullpen management every day over the course of an 162 game season is for the Facebook fans

That's because you watch the American League. Not trying to be glib but that's the whole game, this is my point.

I mean they're athletes, yes, but most of the game is them standing there and figuring out who is going to do what next. In the NL that means knowing who is on your bench, who is left to bat in the 9th spot, what pitcher they might bring in to face who you have. Watching the AL there's none of that, it's auto-pilot. I don't even know where anyone is in their lineup after the second inning because it doesn't matter.

[SixFeetDeep]

Pinch Hitters in 2019:

Mets: .211 BA
Dodgers: .230 BA

The pirates led the NL with .319 PH BA.

So, in 2019, the Mets and Dodgers saw a marginal increase in chance of getting a hit when pinch hitting for a pitcher, and Pitt, the team that did it the most successfully likely didn’t win or lose any more games due to their strategy.

[AlioTheFool]

Again you're focused on 1-2 plate appearances per team out of roughly 40, at the expense of a lot of strategy and an extra dimension to the whole game. And in those 1-2 plate appearances, the pitcher has a 80% chance of being an out instead of a 75% chance.

In every 9-inning game, the #9 spot comes up at least 3 times, with the only possible exception being the home team closing out a game in the top of the ninth.

The strategy of a manager figuring out which of his non-starting-caliber bench players to sub in for his interstate-batting average pitcher comes up a couple of times a game. The strategy needed by the pitcher and catcher to deal with a DH--who likely bats anywhere from 3rd to 6th--plus a lineup that never truly ends, just loops around--is all game long.

I truly can't understand anyone who thinks an 80+% out is entertaining.

[Italian Seafood]

Pinch Hitters in 2019:

Mets: .211 BA
Dodgers: .230 BA

The pirates led the NL with .319 PH BA.

So, in 2019, the Mets and Dodgers saw a marginal increase in chance of getting a hit when pinch hitting for a pitcher, and Pitt, the team that did it the most successfully likely didn’t win or lose any more games due to their strategy.

It comes down to who and when in different situations, you really can't analyze it by macro numbers. Also add in a smart pitcher who knows how to put a bunt down, doesn't count for or against the average but moves a runner and can decide a game. Whether or not it works in a given situation, you need to know and use your bench, know and use your bullpen, know where you and the other team is in the lineup at that moment. More situations than I could list without being here all day, and again none of it even happens in the AL.

[SixFeetDeep]

That's because you watch the American League. Not trying to be glib but that's the whole game, this is my point.

I mean they're athletes, yes, but most of the game is them standing there and figuring out who is going to do what next. In the NL that means knowing who is on your bench, who is left to bat in the 9th spot, what pitcher they might bring in to face who you have. Watching the AL there's none of that, it's auto-pilot. I don't even know where anyone is in their lineup after the second inning because it doesn't matter.

Nah, I’ll argue this to the death, AL or NL.

Imo, the amount of influence the head coach has over the outcome of their sporting event:

1) Football
2) Basketball
3) Hockey
4) Baseball

The top 3 sports have:

1) Time management
     Baseball doesn’t have a clock

2) Playcalls
    Hit and Run or defensive shifts in baseball are laughable compared to the complexity of plays or schemes in other sports

3) Live, on the fly substitutions
     Baseball managers have a whole 10-20 minutes to decide what pitcher they’re going with next. They only alter the lineup a max of a few times per night and the changes are permanent. All of the other coaches have to decide what players they want out there within split seconds

 

[Italian Seafood]

In every 9-inning game, the #9 spot comes up at least 3 times, with the only possible exception being the home team closing out a game in the top of the ninth.

The strategy of a manager figuring out which of his non-starting-caliber bench players to sub in for his interstate-batting average pitcher comes up a couple of times a game. The strategy needed by the pitcher and catcher to deal with a DH--who likely bats anywhere from 3rd to 6th--plus a lineup that never truly ends, just loops around--is all game long.

I truly can't understand anyone who thinks an 80+% out is entertaining.

Again, you're focused on the pitcher's actual AB once or twice a game. Most pitchers don't go past the 5th or 6th inning anymore, and even if they do that's when they come out when their spot comes up. Or if the guy is throwing a great game it's another decision, another intrigue in the game that the AL doesn't have. To be a bench player in the NL means you are going to contribute to the game, so to say he's a "non-starting-caliber" player is also not correct, at least in the NL. And the more positions you can play the better chance you have to stay in the game because the 9th spot comes around again and you don't want to use up your whole bench.

[Italian Seafood]

Nah, I’ll argue this to the death, AL or NL.

Imo, the amount of influence the head coach has over the outcome of their sporting event:

1) Football
2) Basketball
3) Hockey
4) Baseball

The top 3 sports have:

1) Time management
     Baseball doesn’t have a clock

2) Playcalls
    Hit and Run or defensive shifts in baseball are laughable compared to the complexity of plays or schemes in other sports

3) Live, on the fly substitutions
     Baseball managers have a whole 10-20 minutes to decide what pitcher they’re going with next. They only alter the lineup a max of a few times per night and the changes are permanent. All of the other coaches have to decide what players they want out there within split seconds

 

Baseball vs other sports you're probably right, I know from managing softball you don't have a lot of control over anything.

But the DH argument is AL vs NL, not baseball vs every other sport. So if you mostly watch the AL, yeah, the manager can probably go home after sending his lineup out.

[AlioTheFool]

Pinch Hitters in 2019:

Mets: .211 BA
Dodgers: .230 BA

The pirates led the NL with .319 PH BA.

So, in 2019, the Mets and Dodgers saw a marginal increase in chance of getting a hit when pinch hitting for a pitcher, and Pitt, the team that did it the most successfully likely didn’t win or lose any more games due to their strategy.

Piggybacking off this, I looked up "Wins Above Avg by Position." The top 5 teams for PH were:

• LAD (1.0)
• MIN (0.6)
• HOU (0.4)
• NYY (0.4)
• TBR (0.2)

Number 6 on the list is OAK, whose PH were worth -0.2 wins above average last year.

The vast majority of teams, and every NL team but the Dodgers, lost value with pinch hitters.

How about the DH position?

• MIN (2.9)
• HOU (2.8)
• TBR (1.0)
• LAA (0.8)
• KCR (0.4)

At 6 is BOS with 0.3, then LAD, MIL, TEX, ATL are tied with 0.1, then MIA, PIT, CIN, CHC, WSN, NYM are all at 0.0 before you start getting to negative values. And you have to go all the way down to 26 (BAL) before you get above -1.

[Italian Seafood]

You can come up with and twist around any numbers you like. Nobody is trying to make the case that pitchers hit better than hitters, my point is a game with a pitchers' spot in the lineup is a lot more interesting, especially from the middle innings on.

[AlioTheFool]

You can come up with and twist around any numbers you like. Nobody is trying to make the case that pitchers hit better than hitters, my point is a game with a pitchers' spot in the lineup is a lot more interesting, especially from the middle innings on.

And my point is, it's not.