Author Topic: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?  (Read 63659 times)

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Miamipuck

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #255 on: December 12, 2019, 12:15:07 PM »
  • Chose not to use the highly paid elite RB on the roster against the winless team that couldn't stop the run at any point prior to that game.
  • Didn't run the ball outside even when he did choose to run, despite it being the weakest part of that defense.
  • Publicly posted a shaming fine against a guy whose career is probably over for not showing up for a rehab.
  • Has blamed lack of execution in his postgame press conferences after every loss, and has only "taken blame" for bad playcalling after wins.
  • Snaked his way into getting the GM fired that had input into his hiring. After throwing a childish fit during and immediately after the draft.
  • Spoke out about not wanting to have paid Le'Veon Bell or CJ Mosley what Maccagnan did.
  • Shows no adjustments to game plans no matter how they're (not) working.
  • Has been seen at times sitting on the bench alone during games looking at his playsheets--is this what a head coach is supposed to do?
  • Doesn't throw his own challenge flag because "he's busy doing other things," like not managing the game.
  • Let's not forget that he supposedly didn't even know what was happening when Brian Winters allowed a safety then yelled at Darnold, then threw a fit on the sideline.
Those are just some things off the top of my head. And they don't include anything that hasn't happened this season so you can't even counter with an argument about what may or may not have happened in Miami previously, of which there are loads of issues--and really gets to the core of why many of us won't give him so much as an inch.

I will allow that what annoys me about Gase is contained in many of the examples above, some of the things I don't think deserve to be held against him. I don't know if he did or didn't know about Winters on the sideline but I do know that try asking Belichick that same question. He would say something snarky and you couldn't tell whether he knew or didn't. I know as a coach I wouldn't admit excrement and then handle it in house. Sitting on the sidelines himself, I don't know, there's so much substance from other crap that who really cares about this.


What a coach says in public is nonsnese. If he says lack of execution, he could be privately beating himself with a belt buckle (one could hope) over his lack of adjustments and always trying to be the smartest guy in the room. Going by his actions, I think he really believes he's the smartest guy in the room. That's ultimately going to be his downfall.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 12:17:53 PM by Miamipuck »
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loyaljetsfan

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #256 on: December 12, 2019, 12:48:02 PM »
I don't know if he's bad, but Darnold has 11 total TD and 2 Int in his last 5 games. The franchise is based on Sam Darnold. That's all anyone said this offseason. So are you happy with Gase's development? It's been somewhat of a mixed bag, but I think it's been more positive than negative.

He's shown he can draw up opening drives that can score on a relatively consistent basis, after being the worst opening drive team in the NFL for years.

The team competed in pretty much every game despite massive injuries seemingly every week. The team has not quit on Gase.

People thought he and Gregg Williams were going to clash, but they haven't, and the defense has been surprisingly good given the injuries. Most of that goes to Williams, but Gase is the head coach, so he gets some credit and some blame for the whole team.


But really, it all comes down to Darnold. Darnold seems to love Gase. That's not enough reason to keep Gase around, but if we're happy with Darnold's development, we should keep Gase and let him develop in a system. Drafting a QB and giving him 3 different systems in 3 seasons is a poor idea. Especially since I'm sure a segment on this board will quit on whoever we hire next season by November, which is about 9 months longer than the leash many of you gave Gase.

What has Gase done that is so awful that we need to fire him after one season? And please limit it to things that have actually happened.

Hell no.  I don't think Sam has grown/improved under Gase. His production this year is very similar to what he did in those final four games, so how did Gase help?

If we same a material difference in Sam's play and the offense was rolling & playing consistently, and we were still 5-8, I think many of us would be singing a different tune. But we're not.

And please don't mention the OL or injuries...Williams is doing a great job on D with dudes who are flipping burgers next year starting at multiple positions.

This dude thinks and acts like he's Belichick, as if he's the smartest guy in the room and he is the farthest thing from it.  He's been marginally pedestrian at all of his senior level coaching positions and he needs to GTFO


MexJetinBcn

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #257 on: December 12, 2019, 01:10:40 PM »
Are you enjoying this season, the one where everything has gone wrong?

Come on, not everything has gone wrong. After last season we made a prediction thread and most of us were looking at a 6-10, 7-9 season. We seem to be in pace for that. And that's the whole thing. It's difficult to take these arguments seriously when many times what you guys do is to overdramatize EVERY situation. There's a lot of excrement, there's some good things too. Gase sucks, he's not Kotite. There's shades of gray.

MBGreen

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #258 on: December 12, 2019, 01:14:29 PM »
Come on, not everything has gone wrong. After last season we made a prediction thread and most of us were looking at a 6-10, 7-9 season. We seem to be in pace for that. And that's the whole thing. It's difficult to take these arguments seriously when many times what you guys do is to overdramatize EVERY situation. There's a lot of excrement, there's some good things too. Gase sucks, he's not Kotite. There's shades of gray.

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Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #259 on: December 12, 2019, 01:44:10 PM »
Come on, not everything has gone wrong. After last season we made a prediction thread and most of us were looking at a 6-10, 7-9 season. We seem to be in pace for that. And that's the whole thing. It's difficult to take these arguments seriously when many times what you guys do is to overdramatize EVERY situation. There's a lot of excrement, there's some good things too. Gase sucks, he's not Kotite. There's shades of gray.

This sums it up. People talk about the big picture in the abstract--draft a QB, let him develop over a couple years, etc. But when it comes to actually doing that, which means some bad games, mediocre records, learning curve, some people don't have the stomach for it. Coach has to go, QB is "broken" or "ruined", "overdramatize" is the right word.
So it turns out, Italian Seafood was right an everyone can go freak themselves.

mj2sexay

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #260 on: December 12, 2019, 01:47:08 PM »
This sums it up. People talk about the big picture in the abstract--draft a QB, let him develop over a couple years, etc. But when it comes to actually doing that, which means some bad games, mediocre records, learning curve, some people don't have the stomach for it. Coach has to go, QB is "broken" or "ruined", "overdramatize" is the right word.

No, everyone should hit the ground running like Mike Tomlin because the situations both coaches inherited are totally the same.

AlioTheFool

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #261 on: December 12, 2019, 02:15:15 PM »
1- Agreed. Completely fair and factual criticism.
2- See #1.
3- The posting of the fines in the team facility is a bad look, Enunwa is also 100% wrong.
4- Overblown by Manish who's clearly operating with an agenda likely because he's not getting the access he previously enjoyed. Meh. I've heard him blame himself plenty after losses.
5- The best thing he's done here IMHO aside from having Sam play on a clear upward trajectory since the Jaguars game. Mac sucked.
6- I don't think he's ever said that.
7- Fair considering the second half performances for the most part, and I think especially reared its head after the Darnold INT last Sunday.
8- Yeah, Andy Reid does it most of the time he's not talking to his quarterback.
9- C'mon, really.
10- I don't recall so I can't comment on it except to say freak Brian Winters. 

So let's start with the fact that you agree there is some very valid criticism. Specifically in-game and gameplanning issues. Those are the core of his job, no? If he's bad at them, that's reason for him to be unemployed alone, no?

I'm not quoting anything from Manish. Other than some of his tweets, I haven't read a thing from Manish this year. I watch the postgame show with more interest than the games at this point. The things I say Gase says or does in them, I've witnessed with my own 2 eyes.

Was it good to get rid of Maccagnan? Ends-justify-the-means says yes. And I wanted him gone before anyone except SFD. But it's the snake-style garbage that I don't like. That's not a one-time thing from someone. That's who they are. Maccagnan signed off on Gase's hiring only to be stabbed in the back.

You don't think he's ever said he didn't want to give Bell and Mosley the money they got? I mean, Ian Rappaport isn't Manish: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001030898/article/adam-gase-disagreed-with-price-tag-for-bell-mosley

My problem with things like sitting on the bench alone or having someone else in charge of the challenge flag are: the head coach should be directly involved in all 3 phases of the game. His job is to oversee the 3 units, not play with his own toys in the corner.

And agreed, freak Brian Winters. But again, a head coach needs to take care of garbage like that. Not put the guy right back in the game. And even if he didn't know what happened then, how did Winters get to start the next week as well?
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MexJetinBcn

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #262 on: December 12, 2019, 02:26:27 PM »
we're all gonna die too.

Yeah, but not today

AlioTheFool

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #263 on: December 12, 2019, 02:34:06 PM »
Come on, not everything has gone wrong. After last season we made a prediction thread and most of us were looking at a 6-10, 7-9 season. We seem to be in pace for that. And that's the whole thing. It's difficult to take these arguments seriously when many times what you guys do is to overdramatize EVERY situation. There's a lot of excrement, there's some good things too. Gase sucks, he's not Kotite. There's shades of gray.

This keeps being repeated, and so does the question: what exactly are those good things?

The pro-Gase side wants to say the fire-him side keep overdramatizing point after point why he's a bad coach, but at the same time won't step up and tell us what he's done that's good.

This sums it up. People talk about the big picture in the abstract--draft a QB, let him develop over a couple years, etc. But when it comes to actually doing that, which means some bad games, mediocre records, learning curve, some people don't have the stomach for it. Coach has to go, QB is "broken" or "ruined", "overdramatize" is the right word.

Big picture means seeing reason to believe. I believe in the talent of Sam Darnold. I do not believe in Adam Gase at all.

No, everyone should hit the ground running like Mike Tomlin because the situations both coaches inherited are totally the same.

Nobody is saying this.
Teams that draft well do so no matter where they pick. Teams that draft poorly do so no matter where they pick I want my team to win games and draft well

Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #264 on: December 12, 2019, 02:45:35 PM »

Big picture means seeing reason to believe. I believe in the talent of Sam Darnold. I do not believe in Adam Gase at all.

That's your right, it's early in the process. Once Darnold got healthy and comfortable in the offense it has been better, the opening drives I think tied a team record or broke it. We put up 34 points a few times in a row, there's been some positive signs. A lot of that is Darnold but some of it is the coaching staff too. The team stayed together at 1-7 and has been 4-1 since then, if you're going to assign blame for the bad at least recognize the good. We're 5-8 and people are acting like we're 2-11.
So it turns out, Italian Seafood was right an everyone can go freak themselves.

Derek Smalls

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #265 on: December 12, 2019, 03:58:19 PM »
1- Agreed. Completely fair and factual criticism.
2- See #1.
3- The posting of the fines in the team facility is a bad look, Enunwa is also 100% wrong.
4- Overblown by Manish who's clearly operating with an agenda likely because he's not getting the access he previously enjoyed. Meh. I've heard him blame himself plenty after losses.
5- The best thing he's done here IMHO aside from having Sam play on a clear upward trajectory since the Jaguars game. Mac sucked.
6- I don't think he's ever said that.
7- Fair considering the second half performances for the most part, and I think especially reared its head after the Darnold INT last Sunday.
8- Yeah, Andy Reid does it most of the time he's not talking to his quarterback.
9- C'mon, really.
10- I don't recall so I can't comment on it except to say freak Brian Winters. 
Yep. As with most of the Gase criticisms, there is plenty of truth, but there is so much irrelevant garbage people blame Gase for that makes it hard to take the rest of the post seriously.

MBGreen

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #266 on: December 12, 2019, 04:24:52 PM »
Yep. As with most of the Gase criticisms, there is plenty of truth, but there is so much irrelevant garbage people blame Gase for that makes it hard to take the rest of the post seriously.
Well...with the criticisms, there’s a degree of frustration that comes along with that.  So you can expect some hyperbole to get thrown in.

Some of us are tired of spinning our wheels, while some are content to accept shitty coaching as the status quo.
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Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #267 on: December 12, 2019, 04:30:13 PM »
Well...with the criticisms, there’s a degree of frustration that comes along with that.  So you can expect some hyperbole to get thrown in.

Some of us are tired of spinning our wheels, while some are content to accept shitty coaching as the status quo.

You can't state your own case without mischaracterizing others. You gave up in Week 2, that's not our problem.
So it turns out, Italian Seafood was right an everyone can go freak themselves.

Derek Smalls

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #268 on: December 12, 2019, 04:39:08 PM »
Well...with the criticisms, there’s a degree of frustration that comes along with that.  So you can expect some hyperbole to get thrown in.

Some of us are tired of spinning our wheels, while some are content to accept shitty coaching as the status quo.
I just think that a lot of it is overblown.

This team critically lacks talent in many areas. We played a 3rd-string QB for 3 games, our RB missed a game, our #2 WR barely played, we lost our #1 TE and later our #2 TE, our OL has been a revolving door all year, Quinnen has missed time, we traded Leonard, the LB corps has been a revolving door, the CBs have changed constantly, and even Jamal has now missed time. Entering this season, most of us agreed that this team had talent if they stayed healthy, and it just lacked depth. Then when this team needs to play all the depth, people think we're poorly coached. I don't think Bill Belichick would have a winning record with this team.

Libero_2

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #269 on: December 12, 2019, 04:47:15 PM »
I just think that a lot of it is overblown.

This team critically lacks talent in many areas. We played a 3rd-string QB for 3 games, our RB missed a game, our #2 WR barely played, we lost our #1 TE and later our #2 TE, our OL has been a revolving door all year, Quinnen has missed time, we traded Leonard, the LB corps has been a revolving door, the CBs have changed constantly, and even Jamal has now missed time. Entering this season, most of us agreed that this team had talent if they stayed healthy, and it just lacked depth. Then when this team needs to play all the depth, people think we're poorly coached. I don't think Bill Belichick would have a winning record with this team.

I don't think anyone disputes that.

What we are pissed about is HOW bad we have looked. In a season where 80% of the AFC is a complete dumpster fire, and there were more 2 wins and less teams ever by week 10, we were as bad as any of them. We made NFL HISTORY for futility in being the first team to EVER lose to multiple 0-7 or worse teams. We did that in part because we are talentless, but in part because the coaching is not good enough to win. There are times (opening drives) where this team looks prepared and pounces on teams. But as our opponents make adjustments we are simply spinning our gears and thats putting it mildly.

In addition, the number of times we have been completely embarrassed/non-competitive this season is very high. Both Patriots games, the Eagles, the Bengals (an 0-11 team), the Browns just off the top of my head. Thats 5 of our 8 losses we weren't even competitive in, and frankly I think one could argue a couple of our wins we didn't even realize deserve (Dolphins).

Thats why we are pissed, we have a creampuff back of the schedule and honestly can't even compete on a field with a terrible AFC. Gase isn't getting it done, and I don't want to watch him continue to freak up.

At what point has he had enough leash to warrant a change? 16 games? 18? 24? 32? 48? Because I want to know how long I need to wait before I can at least pretend to believe we have a shot to win for real.
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