Author Topic: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?  (Read 63643 times)

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Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #210 on: December 11, 2019, 02:06:28 PM »
We all know he's back next year.  But you were advocating to keep him because this team lacks stability.


As far as 2020 goes, if he isn't winning games, he's gone.  That's how the NFL works.  If you're not winning, then it's only a matter of time.  Rex produced in his first 2 years as HC, so he was rewarded with another contract, and then declined steadily over his last 4 years.  Coaches in any professional sport will tell you, they get hired to get fired.


You guys keep using Tomlin as a model of stability.  Guess what...he freaking wins.  That's why he's still there.

You keep bringing up Tomlin, we're trying to tell you why he can win when they lose players. Because they've had two coaches in 30 years, three in 50 years, everyone fits and knows the system. We can only accomplish that here if we don't replace the coach every time the natives get restless, like the first half of the first season when you lose your top two QBs.

If you know Gase is back next year, which is what we've been told specifically, what are the pages of "fire him now" arguments going to do? In my opinion the chances of the team doing better with Darnold having a second year in the same system are greater than the chances the Johnsons go out this winter and making the perfect hire. So to me the right move is go with this for right now, more about Darnold than Gase. It wouldn't be the first time a QB has made a coach look better than he is. If he does have to learn another new offense, again, we'll probably struggle early--again--next year and you guys will all want that coach fired.

Regarding Rex, I get why he was fired but it's a whole different argument. Once a coach proves he can win I'm reluctant to just fire him for change sake, because the chances are very good you get someone worse. And that's exactly what happened. 
So it turns out, Italian Seafood was right an everyone can go freak themselves.

ScotlandJet

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #211 on: December 11, 2019, 02:09:55 PM »
So you guys are just completely outside the realm of reality, because they're not selling the team, either. That's where our disconnect is, I look at actual reality and hope for the best within those confines.

I'm with I.S as usual. When you reach a certain vintage in life you start to realize that your ambition of being around for winning the big one is vanishing sharply and you have to take what this awful franchise affords you. I'll still keep hoping.
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MBGreen

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #212 on: December 11, 2019, 02:34:38 PM »
You keep bringing up Tomlin, we're trying to tell you why he can win when they lose players. Because they've had two coaches in 30 years, three in 50 years, everyone fits and knows the system. We can only accomplish that here if we don't replace the coach every time the natives get restless, like the first half of the first season when you lose your top two QBs.

If you know Gase is back next year, which is what we've been told specifically, what are the pages of "fire him now" arguments going to do? In my opinion the chances of the team doing better with Darnold having a second year in the same system are greater than the chances the Johnsons go out this winter and making the perfect hire. So to me the right move is go with this for right now, more about Darnold than Gase. It wouldn't be the first time a QB has made a coach look better than he is. If he does have to learn another new offense, again, we'll probably struggle early--again--next year and you guys will all want that coach fired.

Regarding Rex, I get why he was fired but it's a whole different argument. Once a coach proves he can win I'm reluctant to just fire him for change sake, because the chances are very good you get someone worse. And that's exactly what happened. 

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Johnny English

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #213 on: December 11, 2019, 02:38:28 PM »


I don't know what you're talking about

Clearly. Which is why I said you should ask MB what he thinks the correct approach is (one that he, I and many others have advocated many times, and for longer than Gase's short and miserable tenure) rather than making excrement up and looking stupid.
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Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #214 on: December 11, 2019, 02:42:24 PM »

Clearly. Which is why I said you should ask MB what he thinks the correct approach is (one that he, I and many others have advocated many times, and for longer than Gase's short and miserable tenure) rather than making excrement up and looking stupid.

You're assuming I care what you and him think.
So it turns out, Italian Seafood was right an everyone can go freak themselves.

MBGreen

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #215 on: December 11, 2019, 02:47:26 PM »
You're assuming I care what you and him think.

Not everybody can handle the truth.
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Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #216 on: December 11, 2019, 03:09:32 PM »
Not everybody can handle the truth.

Like the owner and coach are staying?
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Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #217 on: December 11, 2019, 03:18:30 PM »
I'm with I.S as usual. When you reach a certain vintage in life you start to realize that your ambition of being around for winning the big one is vanishing sharply and you have to take what this awful franchise affords you. I'll still keep hoping.

I mean there are times when it's obvious that changes need to be made, other times when it could go either way, and times where you just made the changes and have to stick by them to see how it works. To me we are clearly in the latter, I don't see any way we aren't.
So it turns out, Italian Seafood was right an everyone can go freak themselves.

MBGreen

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #218 on: December 11, 2019, 03:38:53 PM »
Like the owner and coach are staying?

Nobody said the owner was going anywhere, not sure why you keep bringing that up....I’ll chalk it up to you being illiterate.

The coach is on borrowed time...if not this offseason, definitely next year.
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AlioTheFool

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #219 on: December 11, 2019, 03:39:29 PM »
I mean there are times when it's obvious that changes need to be made, other times when it could go either way, and times where you just made the changes and have to stick by them to see how it works. To me we are clearly in the latter, I don't see any way we aren't.

If you come home and someone is squatting on your doorstep with their pants around their ankles looking like they're straining, do you just hang out and wait to see what happens?

The problem people like MB, JE, and myself have is that what we see from Gase is detremental to the team. Meaning, allowing him another year running this team will cause far more harm than any "stability" could be worth.

I'm going to be angry enough to set things on fire if Bell and Adams are traded this offseason. Like you always say, keep your good players and build off of them, don't trade them. But that's exactly what it looks like Gase is going to force to happen--because he doesn't "value" them enough.
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Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #220 on: December 11, 2019, 03:51:21 PM »
If you come home and someone is squatting on your doorstep with their pants around their ankles looking like they're straining, do you just hang out and wait to see what happens?

The problem people like MB, JE, and myself have is that what we see from Gase is detremental to the team. Meaning, allowing him another year running this team will cause far more harm than any "stability" could be worth.

I'm going to be angry enough to set things on fire if Bell and Adams are traded this offseason. Like you always say, keep your good players and build off of them, don't trade them. But that's exactly what it looks like Gase is going to force to happen--because he doesn't "value" them enough.

You might end up being right eventually, I don't know, but the majority of what you seem angry about is what you think is going to happen next year.  If you have a healthy Darnold in Week 1 with the command of the offense he has now, and had at the end of last year, we're probably going to be in contention. Gase doesn't have to be a genius, we've seen a good QB like Chad Pennington get the likes of Herm, Mangini and Sprano to the playoffs. I mentioned Belichick's 5-11 in 2000, they were 0-2 the next year before we knocked Bledsoe out and Brady came in. It's a QB-centric league, while I appreciate the concern for keeping Adams and Bell, and we should, job #1 is maximizing the QB we were lucky to get.
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Derek Smalls

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #221 on: December 11, 2019, 03:53:12 PM »
If you come home and someone is squatting on your doorstep with their pants around their ankles looking like they're straining, do you just hang out and wait to see what happens?

The problem people like MB, JE, and myself have is that what we see from Gase is detremental to the team. Meaning, allowing him another year running this team will cause far more harm than any "stability" could be worth.

I'm going to be angry enough to set things on fire if Bell and Adams are traded this offseason. Like you always say, keep your good players and build off of them, don't trade them. But that's exactly what it looks like Gase is going to force to happen--because he doesn't "value" them enough.
You continue to deny it, but this is another example of people blaming Gase for excrement that hasnt happened.

If we trade Adams because Gase doesnt like him, then I will blame Gase for that and be livid barring a ridiculous return. If we trade Bell, who cares. But neither has happened yet your argument for Gase being detrimental to the team has to do with things that haven't happened. You're seeing ghosts.

There are plenty of points to make why Gase hasnt done a great job. I dont think any are bad enough to fire a coach after one season but I'll let Douglas make that choice. If he decides to fire him, I will support that. If he decides to keep him, I'll probably support that too.

Italian Seafood

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #222 on: December 11, 2019, 03:57:39 PM »
You're seeing ghosts.

LOL that's cold.

Quote
I dont think any are bad enough to fire a coach after one season but I'll let Douglas make that choice. If he decides to fire him, I will support that. If he decides to keep him, I'll probably support that too.

Also a good point. Some people here (MBGreen) have a little trouble distinguishing a coach from a GM. He was hired in June, hasn't even had a go at it yet.
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Johnny English

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #223 on: December 11, 2019, 04:05:36 PM »


There are plenty of points to make why Gase hasnt done a great job. I dont think any are bad enough to fire a coach after one season but I'll let Douglas make that choice. If he decides to fire him, I will support that. If he decides to keep him, I'll probably support that too.

You're missing a fundamental point here - in fact, the same one that Seafood has been.

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MBGreen

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Re: Official Serious Debate: When was the last time the team was this depressing?
« Reply #224 on: December 11, 2019, 04:06:24 PM »


Also a good point. Some people here (MBGreen) have a little trouble distinguishing a coach from a GM. He was hired in June, hasn't even had a go at it yet.

I'm not asking for Joe Douglas to be fired.

Your problem is you can't accept the fact a coach has input on the roster.  Rex had plenty of influence on the roster when he was here (at the draft, in free agency, etc etc). He didn't sit idly on his thumb while the GM made all the roster decisions. They work together. That's probably where the gap is between your reality and everyone else's.
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