LOL NFL

[mj2sexay]

No, it absolutely is not.

The NFL is effectively funding an internship for a year. At the end of the year they will presumably review the program, but my guess (if there are more details available I haven't seen them) is that teams can either hire those offensive coaching interns because they like them, or they can say "I don't have a job for you but I'll gladly give you a great reference to other teams", or they can shake their hand and walk away. Any which way, there will be 32 more  experienced offensive coaches of colour who are now either working in football or with the experience of doing so.

This is an internship. I realise that a lot of the time and in a lot of industries interns are treated as minimum wage gofers who should just consider themselves lucky to be entrusted with coffee orders and dry cleaning and that somehow they'll parlay that into a career because they'll learn so much about their chosen industry simply by osmosis, but what the NFL is doing is how internships are actually supposed to work.

They literally already have this, it's called the bill walsh diversity coaching fellowship.

If my understanding of the details are off, please feel free to correct me. But my understanding is that the NFL has in effect mandated that every offensive staff in football have a coach deemed to be a minority. Not that they hire an NFL funded offensive assistant that's the equivalent of an intern, simply a quota.

That's absolutely a job as opposed to an internship and though we can banter about discrimination being acceptable, it's naturally going to shut out qualified candidates because of their skin color and deprive them of opportunity.

[dcm1602]

No, it absolutely is not.

The NFL is effectively funding an internship for a year. At the end of the year they will presumably review the program, but my guess (if there are more details available I haven't seen them) is that teams can either hire those offensive coaching interns because they like them, or they can say "I don't have a job for you but I'll gladly give you a great reference to other teams", or they can shake their hand and walk away. Any which way, there will be 32 more  experienced offensive coaches of colour who are now either working in football or with the experience of doing so.

This is an internship. I realise that a lot of the time and in a lot of industries interns are treated as minimum wage gofers who should just consider themselves lucky to be entrusted with coffee orders and dry cleaning and that somehow they'll parlay that into a career because they'll learn so much about their chosen industry simply by osmosis, but what the NFL is doing is how internships are actually supposed to work.

Let's call it an internship then.

Do you think it's appropriate for internships to be based on the color of your skin?

Again I'm completely cool with the desired outcome, I just don't think discrimination is the way to achieve it. There are countless ways you could accomplish this without saying all teams need to hire a mandatory minority.

[Johnny English]

If my understanding of the details are off, please feel free to correct me. But my understanding is that the NFL has in effect mandated that every offensive staff in football have a coach deemed to be a minority. Not that they hire an NFL funded offensive assistant that's the equivalent of an intern, simply a quota.

Because the NFL is funding it I believe it's an additional offensive coach for each team, not just paying the wages of an existing one. I can't believe there are that many teams who don't have at least one minority coach on their offensive staff already - we've got three (Miles Austin, Ron Middleton and Taylor Embree). I doubt the NFL is just picking up the tab for one of them, and I equally doubt they're going to pay for an extra coaching hire on any team that doesn't have a minority offensive coach currently while not giving anything to those teams that do.

Let's wait for the details and see though.

[Johnny English]

Let's call it an internship then.

Do you think it's appropriate for internships to be based on the color of your skin?

Again I'm completely cool with the desired outcome, I just don't think discrimination is the way to achieve it. There are countless ways you could accomplish this without saying all teams need to hire a mandatory minority.

Yes, of course I do. If a section of society is under represented in a particular field it makes absolute sense to make efforts to try and rectify that. It's no different than the initiatives to get more women into STEM fields and boardrooms.

[dcm1602]

Yes, of course I do. If a section of society is under represented in a particular field it makes absolute sense to make efforts to try and rectify that. It's no different than the initiatives to get more women into STEM fields and boardrooms.

So what kind of effort should the nfl make about player representation which looks absolutely nothing whatsoever like the societal population?

[CatoTheElder]

So what kind of effort should the nfl make about player representation which looks absolutely nothing whatsoever like the societal population?

Since so much of that relies on things that the NFL does not control, very little.

Ton the other hand,.te NFL can control how much money and effort they put forth to recruit interested female coaches.

[Johnny English]

So what kind of effort should the nfl make about player representation which looks absolutely nothing whatsoever like the societal population?

I assume you're referring to the fact that 70% of NFL players are black but only 13% of all Americans are? If so then it's a good question, we'll have to have a good think about whether white men are unfairly discriminated against in the college ranks or that NFL teams unfairly gravitate towards drafting black players, and figure out what we do about it.

To echo my point to MJ of earlier: discrimination is not per se bad, unfair discrimination is. It's entirely reasonable for an NFL team to discriminate against someone because they don't run as fast as someone else, or because their hands are too small, or because they can't bench press a family car. This is reasonable discrimination.

If you think that white men are not being given a fair opportunity to shine as football players because of the colour of their skin then you should absolutely take that cause up with the NFL.

[insanity]

It's absolutely not whataboutism. People are being precluded from NFL funded opportunity based on nothing but a race based classification.

It's classic discrimination.

The race that holds 93.7% of head coaching jobs is being discriminated against...

[dcm1602]

Since so much of that relies on things that the NFL does not control, very little.

Ton the other hand,.te NFL can control how much money and effort they put forth to recruit interested female coaches.

I assume you're referring to the fact that 70% of NFL players are black but only 13% of all Americans are? If so then it's a good question, we'll have to have a good think about whether white men are unfairly discriminated against in the college ranks or that NFL teams unfairly gravitate towards drafting black players, and figure out what we do about it.

To echo my point to MJ of earlier: discrimination is not per se bad, unfair discrimination is. It's entirely reasonable for an NFL team to discriminate against someone because they don't run as fast as someone else, or because their hands are too small, or because they can't bench press a family car. This is reasonable discrimination.

If you think that white men are not being given a fair opportunity to shine as football players because of the colour of their skin then you should absolutely take that cause up with the NFL.

Let's ignore white men, because they make for a poor argument and I'd rather go for low hanging fruit

Hispanics make up for almost 20% of the American population yet 0.5% of the nfl player base.

You say the nfl can't control these things, surely there are plenty of Hispanic college football players.

Why not add two roster spots exclusively for college drafted Hispanic players only while they're on rookie contracts? Or better yet for non white non African American players?

Because diversity isn't the NFLs goal, hoping on this BLM publicity bandwagon is.

Hell I'd rather see the nfl add roster spots in this regard to at least give young dudes a chance, rather than this current policy which is in my opinion racist

[Badger]

Let's ignore white men, because they make for a poor argument and I'd rather go for low hanging fruit

Hispanics make up for almost 20% of the American population yet 0.5% of the nfl player base.

You say the nfl can't control these things, surely there are plenty of Hispanic college football players.

Why not add two roster spots exclusively for college drafted Hispanic players only while they're on rookie contracts? Or better yet for non white non African American players?

Because diversity isn't the NFLs goal, hoping on this BLM publicity bandwagon is.

Hell I'd rather see the nfl add roster spots in this regard to at least give young dudes a chance, rather than this current policy which is in my opinion racist

lmao

[Johnny English]

Hispanics make up for almost 20% of the American population yet 0.5% of the nfl player base.

You say the nfl can't control these things, surely there are plenty of Hispanic college football players.

Google tells me that 2.7% of college football players are Hispanic, so the problem starts there. It's good that you've identified it though, and you'll be pleased to know that the conversation has already begun.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2020/10/14/barriers-latinos-power-5-football-told-hispanic-players/3589170001/

[dcm1602]

Google tells me that 2.7% of college football players are Hispanic, so the problem starts there. It's good that you've identified it though, and you'll be pleased to know that the conversation has already begun.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2020/10/14/barriers-latinos-power-5-football-told-hispanic-players/3589170001/

Maybe the statistic I read was off but it stated 0.5% of nfl players identified as Latino

Regardless the numbers both make the same argument.

Honestly going off topic but it does seem like all things BLM has completely overshadowed every and all things Hispanic in this country. And by that I mean it seems that black caucus seems to advocate and have a exponentially more effective PR/political influence in this country

[insanity]

Maybe the statistic I read was off but it stated 0.5% of nfl players identified as Latino

Regardless the numbers both make the same argument.

Honestly going off topic but it does seem like all things BLM has completely overshadowed every and all things Hispanic in this country. And by that I mean it seems that black caucus seems to advocate and have a exponentially more effective PR/political influence in this country

So that means we shouldn't focus on any inequality?

Also the rule is for any minority race and women included

[dcm1602]

So that means we shouldn't focus on any inequality?

Also the rule is for any minority race and women included

Yes the rule for coaching is that

And it ignores the biggest racial inequality in the league.

The under representation of Hispanics.

And the players are the face of the league which has far reaching consequences on culture acorss the entirety of this nation

[mj2sexay]

Because the NFL is funding it I believe it's an additional offensive coach for each team, not just paying the wages of an existing one. I can't believe there are that many teams who don't have at least one minority coach on their offensive staff already - we've got three (Miles Austin, Ron Middleton and Taylor Embree). I doubt the NFL is just picking up the tab for one of them, and I equally doubt they're going to pay for an extra coaching hire on any team that doesn't have a minority offensive coach currently while not giving anything to those teams that do.

Let's wait for the details and see though.

Speaking on this though, they've already said that there are teams already compliant. I'd assume we're one of them. That would make me assume this isn't a created position, but a quota.

The race that holds 93.7% of head coaching jobs is being discriminated against...

It's absolutely amazing that you accused me of arguing via strawman earlier in this thread (when I wasn't even involved in the discussion you absolute hoo-ha) and this was your takeaway. The more intelligent and non strawman argument would be the one below, so maybe take a freaking note.

To echo my point to MJ of earlier: discrimination is not per se bad, unfair discrimination is. It's entirely reasonable for an NFL team to discriminate against someone because they don't run as fast as someone else, or because their hands are too small, or because they can't bench press a family car. This is reasonable discrimination.

I agree. It would be totally unfair on the other hand to discriminate based on skin color.

We're not going to convince the other whether or not the overriding interest of ensuring there are more black head coaches in the league is worth discriminating against others via a race based classification, but I can at least acknowledge the merit of the cause and the argument. I don't really feel like getting into the whole discussion as to whether this needs to be forced or if nature is going to take its course in terms of the rise of more minority candidates, and even on that front I'm willing to invite the possibility that progress as I define it is taking too long.

Between the minority coaching fellowship, and the attempt to incentivize teams for placing minority candidates in a position to be promoted via draft compensation (which for the record I still maintain might actually hurt a candidate in a specific situation, namely being hired in the division), the Rooney Rule has been bolstered to ensure that there's going to be a much more healthy pipeline of minority candidates to choose from in future hiring cycles. But people want instant gratification now. This isn't going to change next years hiring pool, so I look forward to the same discussion about how we don't have enough minority head coaches as if this is something that gets "fixed" overnight. And honestly, I put fixed in quotes because I don't know what that means. What's the percentage that makes everyone happy?