49ers LB Chris Borland retires

[Tommy]

You didn't really give me a chance to explain myself though. My point was, I cheer for laundry. I'm not going to spend time worrying about guys getting paid millions to cause each other serious injuries, it's for them to figure out. As long as the product is entertaining, I don't really care. Not my problem to solve. You could apply the same logic to boxing or wrestling or motor racing or movie stuntmen or a wide range of other pursuits.

I love it when I agree with you.

[Miamipuck]

It's not just brain damage.  There are so many negative bodily consequences of a playing career.  Bone, joint, tissue, and spinal damage that you didn't even know about while playing.  Everyone in the NFL comes out at least partially disabled.  Everyone.

This is 100% true.

[ukilledkenny]

Yep.  The league has gotten a bit better about its retired players, but a lot more needs to be done to help these guys evaluate their lives outside the game.  It's awful watching what can happen as far as lifelong damage after even an injury free career.

Of course, this point is lost on an awful lot of people.  JE said to me recently that he doesn't give a freak about lifetime suffering because he doesn't consider them people.  Just things that have been paid well to suffer massive lifelong pain for his enjoyment.

There has to be a balance between preserving the enjoyment of the league and taking care of the people who make it great.

They're definitely people, with agency, who made the choice throughout their lives to forgo other activities to pursue football.

It's not our job to be concerned about their arrangements with their employer. You don't care about what my healthcare situation with my employer is because you expect me to have it worked out.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

You didn't really give me a chance to explain myself though. My point was, I cheer for laundry. I'm not going to spend time worrying about guys getting paid millions to cause each other serious injuries, it's for them to figure out. As long as the product is entertaining, I don't really care. Not my problem to solve. You could apply the same logic to boxing or wrestling or motor racing or movie stuntmen or a wide range of other pursuits.

This would be much more convincing if you weren't one of the worst offenders when it comes to cheering and wishing for injuries to specific players.  They don't get paid to seriously injure each other.  At least that's not why I watch football.  Injuries on the playing field are a part of the game and a risk that is accepted by anyone who signs up to play in the NFL.  Everyone knows that and always has.  What has come to light recently is the idea that severe brain trauma has lifelong effects and shortens the lifespan of players who may not ever sustain serious injury.  Players have always been aware that bones can be broken, ligaments torn, even issues like paralysis.  They were not made aware of the myriad ways the game permanently destroys your body.  I'm sure, however, that at 22 years old you were capable of making a decision based on poor information with money waved in front of your face.  The whole point is that they didn't disclose the effects, didn't allow players to enter into an agreement with all of the information, and then ignored the effects of playing the game when they retired.

Again, though, given that you cheer for injury and insist they're 'not people', I don't expect any of this to make a difference to you.

[Miamipuck]

I have played poker with old (60+ y/o) NFL players and met a few in other endeavors. All of them have hip and/or knee replacements in some combo at least. I suspect as the ACL and joint surgeons have gotten enormously better maybe the younger retirees that percentage may have gone down.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

They're definitely people, with agency, who made the choice throughout their lives to forgo other activities to pursue football.

It's not our job to be concerned about their arrangements with their employer. You don't care about what my healthcare situation with my employer is because you expect me to have it worked out.

See above for the first part.  The consequences of their decision were not adequately explained until very recently.  That's why you're going to get more of these early retirements.

I don't care about their healthcare situation while employed just like you don't.  I expect them to have it worked out just like you do.  I would care, however, if I was financially and directly supporting whatever industry you're in only to find out that it was permanently disabling its employees.  It's not the same as caring about your health insurance.  I don't pay money to watch you perform a job on TV every week that's damaging you for life.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

I have played poker with old NFL players and met a few in other endeavors. All of them have hip and/or knee replacements in some combo at least.

They're lucky if that's all it is for them.

[Johnny English]

To be fair, I think it's only players in Patriots jerseys upon whom I wish injury (there may be one or two non-Patriots for whom a broken bone or two would be a just reward as well, but none spring to mind). Once they're not in that jersey I don't care any more. Again, it's about the laundry.

I have the same amount of interest in them as people as they do in me, I'm never going to meet them and in a few years they'll just be another footnote in the history of the game to all but their loved ones. I wouldn't genuinely wish a concussion on anyone, but I don't watch a movie and then demand that the studio prove that they took appropriate steps to ensure that the guys jumping off buildings or smashing cars into each other were adequately protected. I don't see why I'm supposed to feel differently about football.

[Miamipuck]

They're lucky if that's all it is for them.

Well that's the obvious stuff. You can tell when the guy has a difficult time walking and or sitting in a chair. It's not like I want to pry into their personal life to find out what's not so obvious.

Other than joking about Tom Brady I never wish injury on anyone, that's pretty silly.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

To be fair, I think it's only players in Patriots jerseys upon whom I wish injury (there may be one or two non-Patriots for whom a broken bone or two would be a just reward as well, but none spring to mind). Once they're not in that jersey I don't care any more. Again, it's about the laundry.

No.  I've heard you wish injury upon players simply for being obnoxious.  Then there's your overall approach, which is that any player we play against who gets injured is...

GTFO with that excrement. Injuries to opposing players are awesome, especially good players. They don't put an asterisk next to a result if the star player gets hurt.

And it's not limited to football.  I'll ignore the numerous hockey ones, especially Dany Heatley, who at one point caused you to say you hoped his teammates would also get injured.  Here's one from the other football:

Candreva was excellent versus England.

I really hope that someone on the Italian team gives Suarez a compound fracture that ends his career. And I hope he then contracts MRSA as a result of the injury.

Of course, you flew off the handle about the idea of people not caring about dogs you've never met fighting because they're not people.  And they're actually NOT people.  That led to this one in which you implied there ARE people you can root for, though the jersey supersedes it:

I'll never root for him, but I can root for the jersey he's wearing. I won't be sad to see him get a career-ending injury though.

I have the same amount of interest in them as people as they do in me, I'm never going to meet them and in a few years they'll just be another footnote in the history of the game to all but their loved ones. I wouldn't genuinely wish a concussion on anyone, but I don't watch a movie and then demand that the studio prove that they took appropriate steps to ensure that the guys jumping off buildings or smashing cars into each other were adequately protected. I don't see why I'm supposed to feel differently about football.

That's a terrible comparison and you know it.  You're better than that.  Injuries are not endemic to the film industry and movies take 2 hours of your life as opposed to the way we obsess over sports on here.  You also don't actively root for the actors and stuntmen to get hurt.  Of course, you've made it clear you oppose war and are tired of seeing "brothers and sons go off to die".  Isn't death the purpose of war?  More explicitly so than football?  I'm not suggesting anyone should care about each individual player.  I'm suggesting that people should care that the league take more of a responsibility to warn players of the long term risks and ensure that these kids take better care of their finances.  If you're going to pay them what so many people allege is a lifetime of money over a brief period, put some of it aside to ensure it actually lasts a bit longer than the career length.  Of course, most NFL players will never see these 'millions', but that doesn't stop us from insisting that they leave school early and emphasize their playing career over their long term prospects and education.

[AlioTheFool]

Borland claims he has had only 2 concussions, but they were both when he was a kid.

That's where the tide has to turn. Obviously a 22 year old still has a lot to learn about life and the consequences of choice, but kids are getting seriously injured playing too.

Damien Woody made a good point this morning that nothing is going to change while young men see football as a "way out" but the NFL has to start getting more serious about making the sport safer not just for it's current players, but those kids who they hope might someday be a part of the league.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

Borland claims he has had only 2 concussions, but they were both when he was a kid.

That's where the tide has to turn. Obviously a 22 year old still has a lot to learn about life and the consequences of choice, but kids are getting seriously injured playing too.

Damien Woody made a good point this morning that nothing is going to change while young men see football as a "way out" but the NFL has to start getting more serious about making the sport safer not just for it's current players, but those kids who they hope might someday be a part of the league.

Whether I'd let my son play HS football is a debate I'll hold off until later, but I'd never let my son play Pop Warner.  They try to emulate the hits they see on TV and the vast majority of the time, they're not taught how to hit.  My kids slam other kids around in jiu jitsu (poor choice of words since 'slamming' is illegal), but safety and control are emphasized from day one.

Safety needs to be prioritized at a young age with better tech for helmets and, even more importantly, mouthguards.  Finances need to be handled better, and they've been improved dramatically in recent years.  Players need to be apprised of the true long term risks.  It's really not asking for much.  Most of the players are still going to want to play, but they're doing so with full knowledge.  Help them to actually make their money last to offset the long term injuries they sustain and it's a better league as a result.

[AlioTheFool]

IJR, I agree 100%.

[Johnny English]

No.  I've heard you wish injury upon players simply for being obnoxious.  Then there's your overall approach, which is that any player we play against who gets injured is...

And it's not limited to football.  I'll ignore the numerous hockey ones, especially Dany Heatley, who at one point caused you to say you hoped his teammates would also get injured.  Here's one from the other football:

Heatley and Suarez are very specific cases where they're both screaming cunts who would vastly improve their respective sports by getting career ending injuries. Yeah, I've no problem at all wanting them hurt.

Of course, you flew off the handle about the idea of people not caring about dogs you've never met fighting because they're not people.  And they're actually NOT people.  That led to this one in which you implied there ARE people you can root for, though the jersey supersedes it:

The difference of course being that men who go onto the football field do some of their own free will, can walk away at any time, and are lavished with unthinkable wealth for doing so, while the dogs forced into a fighting arena have no choice in the matter and their reward for success is the opportunity to do it all over again. Yeah, freak Michael Vick.

That's a terrible comparison and you know it.  You're better than that.  Injuries are not endemic to the film industry and movies take 2 hours of your life as opposed to the way we obsess over sports on here.  You also don't actively root for the actors and stuntmen to get hurt. Of course, you've made it clear you oppose war and are tired of seeing "brothers and sons go off to die".  Isn't death the purpose of war?  More explicitly so than football?  I'm not suggesting anyone should care about each individual player.  I'm suggesting that people should care that the league take more of a responsibility to warn players of the long term risks and ensure that these kids take better care of their finances.  If you're going to pay them what so many people allege is a lifetime of money over a brief period, put some of it aside to ensure it actually lasts a bit longer than the career length.  Of course, most NFL players will never see these 'millions', but that doesn't stop us from insisting that they leave school early and emphasize their playing career over their long term prospects and education.

I'm not sure I really understand any of these points. We can't insist that any of these players do any of these things. They do what they choose and they can walk away at any time, and my screaming at the TV on a Sunday afternoon for someone to cause Tom Brady a career ending injury has zero effect on the game. Do I actually want him to get injured? Honestly, I don't care. I want him to not be playing against my team. If the catalyst for that occurring is him getting injured I'm not remotely bothered.

[Johnny English]

Whether I'd let my son play HS football is a debate I'll hold off until later, but I'd never let my son play Pop Warner.  They try to emulate the hits they see on TV and the vast majority of the time, they're not taught how to hit.  My kids slam other kids around in jiu jitsu (poor choice of words since 'slamming' is illegal), but safety and control are emphasized from day one.

This makes complete sense. In any sport, correct contact (on both sides) has to be taught; I played rugby until I was 16 and learning how to tackle, ruck and maul correctly and safely were paramount lessons.

Safety needs to be prioritized at a young age with better tech for helmets and, even more importantly, mouthguards.  Finances need to be handled better, and they've been improved dramatically in recent years.  Players need to be apprised of the true long term risks.  It's really not asking for much.  Most of the players are still going to want to play, but they're doing so with full knowledge.  Help them to actually make their money last to offset the long term injuries they sustain and it's a better league as a result.

I don't think anyone's really advocating a return to leather helmets, are they? Professional player safety and the safeguards put in place to cover them in the event of injury is an employment issue.