The Obituary Column

[CatoTheElder]

Dean Stockwell (dude from Quantum Leap)

OG Wellington Yueh.

[delavan]

F.W. De Klerk, white supremacist

[MBGreen]

F.W. De Klerk, white supremacist

Condolences MJ

[Heismanberg]

Lmao

[mj2sexay]

F.W. De Klerk, white supremacist

Admittedly I don't know excrement about South African politics, but didn't he help end apartheid?

Condolences MJ

Just can't help yourself can you. It's not my problem you're utterly pre programmed to spew whatever freaking shitlib narrative you read last.

[MBGreen]

Just can't help yourself can you. It's not my problem you're utterly pre programmed to spew whatever freaking shitlib narrative you read last.

[mj2sexay]

I'd have a lot more respect if you were honest about your intentions that you don't give a freak about the facts or circumstances of that situation and are just out for blood for whatever reason.

[mj2sexay]

Anyway, in an effort to get a thread back on track to it's intended purpose, Graeme Edge, drummer for the Moody Blues passed away at 80.

[Miamipuck]

F.W. De Klerk, white supremacist

I am not debating if he was a good guy or not because I have no idea, but he ended Apartheid against his parties wishes taking many by surprise, not sure if that's the correct moniker.

[Miamipuck]

I'd have a lot more respect if you were honest about your intentions that you don't give a freak about the facts or circumstances of that situation and are just out for blood for whatever reason.

It's MB, he's just trying and succeeding in getting a rise out of you.

[Johnny English]

I am not debating if he was a good guy or not because I have no idea, but he ended Apartheid against his parties wishes taking many by surprise, not sure if that's the correct moniker.

It's complicated. He was certainly one of the key catalysts for change, but he did so in the face of massively mounting international pressure and sanctions, and he was widely disliked by both whites for making it happen and blacks for not doing it earlier or quickly enough.

What is inarguable is that he was the man who freed Mandela and in doing so made the ending of apartheid unstoppable.

[CatoTheElder]

It's completely possible to oppose an horrific form of oppression and still be a white supremacist. See: the vast majority of abolitionists active prior to the Civil War.

[CatoTheElder]

It's complicated. He was certainly one of the key catalysts for change, but he did so in the face of massively mounting international pressure and sanctions, and he was widely disliked by both whites for making it happen and blacks for not doing it earlier or quickly enough.

What is inarguable is that he was the man who freed Mandela and in doing so made the ending of apartheid unstoppable.

This, too.

Thanks to the sanctions and international pressure there was already broad support for ending Apartheid among the white minority government (1992 referendum on Apartheid: the vote to continue negotiations to end Apartheid passed 2:1, with the no vote only carrying two provinces).

De Klerk was also accused of either authorizing or failing to punish officials who participated in numerous violent raids against opposition parties. 

[Miamipuck]

It's complicated. He was certainly one of the key catalysts for change, but he did so in the face of massively mounting international pressure and sanctions, and he was widely disliked by both whites for making it happen and blacks for not doing it earlier or quickly enough.

What is inarguable is that he was the man who freed Mandela and in doing so made the ending of apartheid unstoppable.

It's complicated and like I said I don't think he was a white supremist because one would not have done what he did, that doesn't mean he's South Africa's version of Abe Lincoln. I suppose he could have held his nose and did it.


The fact that he's hated by many whites and blacks, on the face of it, means he probably did something right and something wrong and there's no good answer for him.

[delavan]

I am not debating if he was a good guy or not because I have no idea, but he ended Apartheid against his parties wishes taking many by surprise, not sure if that's the correct moniker.

Fair point Puck but en route to the presidency, during his days as a minister de Klerk supported and enforced apartheid.  And call me cynical but any 'magnanimity' one may want to credit de Klerk with should be viewed in context, i.e. that apartheid made less and less sense economically in the face of an increasingly strident international court of public opinion. 

edit - true trivia:  Douglaston, Queens' own John Patrick McEnroe was offered $1,000,000 to play an exhibition against Bjorn Borg in Sun City back in the day.  While the 'progressive' Swede Borg was game, Johnny Mac to his everlasting credit refused.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/8ik0zt/in_1980_mcenroe_was_offered_1m_to_play_an/