Author Topic: The Legend Of Jameis Winston  (Read 64489 times)

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Tommy

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #180 on: April 16, 2015, 06:33:16 PM »
Is he a better prospect than Johnny football?
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Heismanberg

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #181 on: April 16, 2015, 06:43:07 PM »
Is he a better prospect than Johnny football?

By far, but who cares? 
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Tommy

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #182 on: April 16, 2015, 06:46:13 PM »

By far, but who cares?

Just saying, no ones a lock.
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ukilledkenny

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #183 on: April 17, 2015, 07:23:20 AM »
I just don't want to be rooting for a serial rapist to lead my team for a decade+. We all condemn big Ben for the same thing.

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #184 on: April 17, 2015, 08:18:23 AM »
I just don't want to be rooting for a serial rapist to lead my team for a decade+. We all condemn big Ben for the same thing.
Did he plan multiple rapes out Darren Sharper style?

SixFeetDeep

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #185 on: April 17, 2015, 09:50:29 AM »
Quote
In assessing whether to charge Winston, any prosecutor has to reckon with two parallel stories that manage to correspond neatly and completely contradict each other at the same time.

The young woman’s story is dominated by impairment. Read the accounts she gave and those the officers took down the night of the alleged rape. Impairment is everything. She later told friends that she thought she hit her head at a party causing her to black out. Impairment caused her to leave Potbelly’s with Winston and his friends. Impairment led her to wake up into a rape. Impairment made it impossible to fight off the rapist. The impairment began and overwhelmed her while inside the bar at Potbelly’s. That’s crucial.

Her core narrative suggests someone gave her a roofie — or some equivalent — and then herded her into a cab when she was out of it. Then the rapist had his way with her back at his apartment. If you believe the rape happened, if you believe the young woman, this is the scenario you have to accept.

There’s one other hugely important element. At some point during the alleged rape, a young black man comes into the room where it’s happening to tell the rapist to stop — at which point the rapist moves to the bathroom to finish the rape.

That’s the core of the young woman’s story. Here’s the key excerpt from what she told the responding FSU police officer just 90 minutes or so after she said the rape occurred.

“After she consumed the shot she stated she couldn’t remember what happen [cq] next. She thinks she got into a cab with someone because they asked to see her student ID. The [accuser] stated she blacked out after that. The next thing she was able to recall was waking up on the floor of someone’s apartment. She knew she wasn’t at Potbelly’s but she couldn’t tell me exactly where she was. The next thing she remembered was being on a bed and a black male having penis to vagina intercourse with her. She stated she saw the door and another black male with dreads in his hair stand in the doorway while telling the other black male to stop what he was doing. The [accuser] stated she told the black male to stop but he replied it would be OK.”

People have discussed some inconsistencies and blank spots in her story. But, really, she told the guts of it pretty consistently in the documents I read.
FSU campus police got the call reporting the rape at 3:22 a.m. The incident itself seems to have occurred between 1:30 and 3. Police took the young woman straight to the hospital and underwent a rape kit about 4:40 a.m. That included drug and alcohol screenings. So the famous delay/suspension in investigating the case did not remotely apply to collection of physical evidence or to taking victim statements in the immediate aftermath. That’s also crucial.

The football players’ story: No impairment; no good samaritan; and Casher does the violating

And here is Winston’s story, as told by fellow FSU players Chris Casher and Ronald Darby. On advice of counsel, Winston has never talked about what happened. (Let me tell you clearly: I would not either. And were I his lawyer, I wouldn’t let my client talk — even if I was totally convinced of his innocence. Nor would I let Winston anywhere near the Title IX hearing they’ve scheduled for him.)
The accuser and her friends ran into Winston, Casher, and Darby at Potbelly’s. I saw no evidence in the record that they knew each other prior to this night.
Casher and Winston both flirted with the accuser; both get her phone number. Casher and Darby both said in sworn statements that the accuser seemed very interested in Winston and was eager to leave with the three men. Neither said she seemed impaired.

Here’s Casher’s statement about intoxication and leaving the bar:
“When Jameis Winston, Ronald Darby, and I decided to leave Potbelly’s the same blonde female that gave me her telephone number followed us out of the club. This same female wanted to leave with us in the cab and virtually invited herself. She was not intoxicated. She was able to have a conversation with us. She was not slurring or stumbling. She was using her cell phone to try and invite her friends to join us.”

Darby said the same thing with less detail.
Casher and Darby both said the young woman and Winston went straight to his room upon arriving at Legacy Suites apartments where they lived and quickly began having sex. How do they know? Because like the young woman, they both say there was an interruption. But it wasn’t an unknown samaritan saying stop, as the woman reported. It was Casher. This is how he described what he did and saw.

“Since the door was partially open, I looked through the opening and we could see her giving Jameis oral sex. They had only been in the room a few minutes before I witnessed her giving him oral sex. Jameis was facing the door with his hands on his hips while she was in front of him on her knees. I witnessed them both take each other’s clothes off and lay on the bed. Jameis and the blonde female began having intercourse. As a joke, I busted into the room to embarrass Jameis. The girl yelled at me, “get out”. She got up off the bed and turned off the light and tried to close the door. I could hear them continuing to have sex. She never indicated that she was not a willing participant. From what I saw she was a more than willing participant.”

In subsequent interviews, including one without a lawyer, Casher admitted trying to tape Winston and the woman with a cell phone and perhaps trying to see if he could join them. Neither Casher nor Darby’s statement indicates what Winston did or said when Casher came in — other than not inviting him to join. There’s just nothing.

In any event, there is your violation. It’s a real one, a humiliating one. Casher had a Title IX disciplinary hearing for it in May and got a year’s probation and one-game suspension. So the school accepts that this happened. Jimbo Fisher must accept that it happened.

So when Jimbo says, “I don’t want a victim to anything, but there is not a victim because there was no crime,” he’s clearly wrong.

I understand why he said it because he’s thinking about Winston. But I don’t believe anyone can say the young woman wasn’t victimized if Casher’s story is true. If you support Winston and believe Casher’s story, you must acknowledge that a set of circumstances and acts involving FSU football players violated and likely humiliated this young woman. The attempt to tape is almost certainly some level of crime. And Casher, it seems to me, is very lucky that he got off with what he did.

The problem for the young woman is that I see no indication that she acknowledges this violation happened. In fact her lawyer was very careful not to say anything about Casher after his Title IX hearing in May. I have searched and searched for any indication that she or her lawyers have ever acknowledged or condemned Casher’s story or behavior. I can’t find it. That isn’t to say it doesn’t exist. I just can’t find it. If you see it somewhere, please let me know.

The player stories and the woman’s story converge again when Winston gives her a ride home on his scooter. It seems likely the entire period at Winston’s apartment lasted less than an hour.

The young woman’s friends and physical evidence demolish her account of impairment

Thus, to decide that Winston raped this young woman based on her story, you have to believe her account of impairment. That also means you have to decide who tells a more credible story — her or the players.

Fortunately, you have help. You have her friends; and you have the very prompt toxicology screenings performed as part of the rape kit which was taken at 4:41 a.m. The rape/sex is thought to have occurred between 1:30 a.m. and 3 a.m., according to the reports.

The blood results showed no trace of any drug. She WAS NOT ROOFIED.
Her blood alcohol at 4:41 or so was .04. That’s half the legal limit for someone over 21 to drive.

Check out this line from the Florida DMV for context:
“Florida has a Zero Tolerance law for drivers under 21. This means that any driver under 21 that is stopped by law enforcement and has a blood alcohol level of .02 or higher will automatically have their Florida drivers license suspended for 6 months. The .02 limit really means that you cannot have a single drink and drive. And that’s the idea.” [My emphasis.]

The accuser is at .048 within two hours of the rape. To repeat, with her blood alcohol level two hours after the rape, the police would allow me to drive. And it wouldn’t be a close call.

Police officers talking to her at the hospital described her as “slightly upset and clearly able to communicate.”

In an incredibly telling detail I saw in the reports, lawyers for the young woman asked FDLE to reconfirm that the blood it checked was actually hers. They didn’t believe the results. And you can’t blame that on a Jameis conspiracy, because the accuser didn’t identify him until several days after her blood was collected.
OK, maybe the young woman has a weird metabolism that causes sudden spikes in impairment that go away just as quickly. And let’s grant that a rape would sober anyone. BAC and drug screenings produce abstract numbers. Let’s look at the visceral instead.

Let’s see what her friends told police about the period of time at the barwhen the accuser says she became impaired. It’s worth noting these statements came after the case was reopened during the 2013 season. Monique Kessler actually conferred with the accuser’s attorney before giving her statement, which proves very damaging to accuser’s story. Marcus Jordan told police he needed to confer with the accuser’s attorney; but I don’t know if he did. Here’s what both said about their friend’s impairment at the bar and at the time of her departure with the players.

Marcus Jordan:
Marcus recalled seeing [the accuser] around 11:30 p.m. and she was “drunk” but was not “that girl” drunk. He said it was not like she needed to go home. He said, “she was just like, happy.”

Monique Kessler
“Monique said she and [the accuser] continued to drink a little more but never got to a level where she felt they were intoxicated. She said [the accuser] did not seem drunk and “we all seemed fine.” At one point, [the accuser] showed Monique her phone and there was a text on it that said “meet me out front”. Monique knew the number was not programmed in [the accuser’s] phone because the number appeared in the display bar instead of a name that would be saved with it. [The accuser] looked at Monique and asked “should I go?” Monique replied, “you can go” and “within a few seconds” [the accuser] was gone…
“…Monique described [the accuser] as a person that does not consume a lot of alcohol. The night of the incident she recalled [the accuser] being fine and that’s why she was OK letting her go when she received the text.”

Both accounts are easily reconciled with those of Casher and Darby. They seem impossible to reconcile with this:
“After she consumed the shot she stated she couldn’t remember what happen [cq] next. She thinks she got into a cab with someone because they asked to see her student ID. The [accuser] stated she blacked out after that. The next thing she was able to recall was waking up on the floor of someone’s apartment.”
According to Google maps, Potbelly’s is 2 miles from Legacy Suites. A seven minute cab ride — six without traffic. When does this wave of impairment hit the accuser? No one but her ever saw it.

Here’s one other really important inferential point. I’m trying to avoid making inferential points, but I think it’s vital to make this one:
In reporting the rape, the accuser told at least two friends who were not with her at the bar that she might have been hit on the head at a party. One of them reported that she rubbed her head. That idea — a concussion-type event — sort of falls away into general impairment over the course of the investigation and morphs into the suggestion of a roofie. So here’s my inferential point: If you were reporting a rape based on impairment, and you knew friends and witnesses had seen you not impaired, how might you account for a sudden impairment?
Just mull that answer on your own. It’s not proof of anything. But she blames both a shot and a blow to the head for the impairment. We know the blow to the head didn’t happen because she had no outward injuries; and she didn’t report it to the doctor who examined her shortly after the rape.

Not meaningfully impaired
The totality of the physical and eyewitness evidence says clearly to me that the young woman is not telling the truth about her impairment. She was probably legally drunk, from a DUI point-of-view. But that’s not close to what she describes. Perhaps you can look at the data and come to a different conclusion. My conscience won’t let me.

Non-impairment does insurmountable damage to the young woman’s case on two levels:
1) Non-impairment completely eviscerates that fact record of her own story. Completely. You would have to start over again and come up with a different scenario.
2) It destroys her credibility as a witness in general and causes me to give much greater credence to Casher and Darby. If Casher’s account is true, Jameis Winston is legally guilty of nothing more than transactional sex with a willing partner and some caddish callousness. That’s nowhere near a crime.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 09:52:49 AM by SixFeetDeep »
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ukilledkenny

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #186 on: April 17, 2015, 10:09:09 AM »
I hope he didn't do it and I hope he goes #1 so we have no possibility of dealing with him.

Johnny English

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #187 on: April 17, 2015, 10:57:13 AM »
For me, the issue is less whether he is actually guilty of rape or not (although obviously if he was that would be a huge issue) as I don't think we'll ever know for sure, but more that he's not sufficiently intelligent to recognise the risks that getting himself into such a situation represent to someone in his position. Again, it's a maturity and responsibility thing.
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Tommy

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #188 on: April 17, 2015, 11:03:53 AM »
How mature are we really expecting college aged guys to be? If you're banging a lot of chicks you're bound to come across a few crazies, or even one that would call rape. Law of averages I guess.
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ukilledkenny

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #189 on: April 17, 2015, 11:09:53 AM »
How mature are we really expecting college aged guys to be? If you're banging a lot of chicks you're bound to come across a few crazies, or even one that would call rape. Law of averages I guess.

Plenty of high profile guys make it through College without getting accused of rape. I don't think you can just brush it off that easily.

Johnny English

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #190 on: April 17, 2015, 11:34:29 AM »
How mature are we really expecting college aged guys to be? If you're banging a lot of chicks you're bound to come across a few crazies, or even one that would call rape. Law of averages I guess.

If you're the highest profile college athlete in the land you need to be aware of your situation. That he gave no thought to the risk of he and two of his teammates taking home a girl on her own and banging her shows a colossal lack of awareness and/or intelligence. Add that to the shoplifting and everything else and he's bad news for an NFL franchise, IMO. He might very well turn out to be a great player but the risk of bust is too high for me.
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Heismanberg

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #191 on: April 17, 2015, 11:38:35 AM »
I hope he didn't do it and I hope he goes #1 so we have no possibility of dealing with him.

this
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Heismanberg

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #192 on: April 17, 2015, 11:39:35 AM »
How mature are we really expecting college aged guys to be? If you're banging a lot of chicks you're bound to come across a few crazies, or even one that would call rape. Law of averages I guess.

This has nothing to do with maturity.  The other stuff he did was immature and I didn't really have issues with any of it.

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SixFeetDeep

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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #193 on: April 17, 2015, 12:21:26 PM »
If you're the highest profile college athlete in the land you need to be aware of your situation. That he gave no thought to the risk of he and two of his teammates taking home a girl on her own and banging her shows a colossal lack of awareness and/or intelligence. Add that to the shoplifting and everything else and he's bad news for an NFL franchise, IMO. He might very well turn out to be a great player but the risk of bust is too high for me.

this incident occurred before he was starting QB at FSU. he was a highly lauded recruit though, and your point still stands.
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Re: The Legend Of Jameis Winston
« Reply #194 on: April 17, 2015, 12:28:05 PM »
He didn't rape anyone it's just a Florida hoodrat looking for money/attention

I haven't seen her pic/name but I'd bet good money she's got a weave and 2 inch long stripper nails