U.S. Politics

[Tommy]

Because if the US and Canada were polluting at the same rate as China, global emissions would be significantly reduced. The only sensible metric is to determine how much pollution we can afford per person on the planet, not per arbitrarily defined national boundary, and work to achieve that number. China should be allowed to produce four times as much pollution as the US, because it has four time as many people.

But China's entire country hasn't industrialized yet. Canada is pretty much capped, so is the U.S, so their emissions can only go down, especially with the rate of investment in energy efficiency and renewables.

[dcm1602]

But China's entire country hasn't industrialized yet. Canada is pretty much capped, so is the U.S, so their emissions can only go down, especially with the rate of investment in energy efficiency and renewables.

That's the other side of this. If China industrializes and starts polluting at comparable rates to the USA and Canada, global co2 emissions would close to double

Regardless of people's opinions on this accord, it leaves many opportunities for improvement from both a person on the left and person on the rights perspective

[Johnny English]

But China's entire country hasn't industrialized yet. Canada is pretty much capped, so is the U.S, so their emissions can only go down, especially with the rate of investment in energy efficiency and renewables.

Cool. We don't want China to increase, and we want the US and Canada to decrease. So we all got together and sat round a table, along with all of the other nations on Earth, and agreed that, and agreed that we'd all take responsibility for our own issues, and we'd all create plans to fix them, and we'd all do what we could to help each other out with fixing our problems because we recognised we're all in this together.

And then the freaking idiot that you put in charge said "nah, freak that because Pruitt says it doesn't matter and I made a bunch of bullshit promises to win a few thousand votes".

[dcm1602]

It's also worth pointing out that Trumps pulling out won't even go into effect for several years, meaning there's either plenty of time for him to renegotiate or for the opposition to get their point across and elect somebody who will suddenly opt us back in when they replace Trump in the Whitehouse


And say what you want about Trump but him pulling the United States out (which largely means nothing) has done a tremendous job getting climate change as the biggest issue in the media and discussions, which will probably benefit the war on climate change more than this bill ever would have

[Fenwyr]

China and India will be leaps and bounds ahead of us in 4 years when it comes to renewable energy.

[dcm1602]

China and India will be leaps and bounds ahead of us in 4 years when it comes to renewable energy.

Considering that the rest of the world will be paying for Indias clean energy that's incredibly unlikely (assuming that's true, and not some shitbheing poorly represented by conservative media) . Not to mention the whole world will likely be very similar when it comes to technology. Once renewable energy becomes more cost efficient than other energy more people will adapt it

[Fenwyr]

Considering that the rest of the world will be paying for Indias clean energy that's incredibly unlikely (assuming that's true, and not some shitbheing poorly represented by conservative media) . Not to mention the whole world will likely be very similar when it comes to technology. Once renewable energy becomes more cost efficient than other energy more people will adapt it

When has excrement not been poorly represented by conservative media?

Why do you keep saying other countries are going to pay for it?

[dcm1602]

When has excrement not been poorly represented by conservative media?

Why do you keep saying other countries are going to pay for it?

Because that's in the agreement

Article 9
1. Developed country Parties shall provide financial resources to assist
developing country Parties with respect to both mitigation and adaptation in
continuation of their existing obligations under the Convention.
2. Other Parties are encouraged to provide or continue to provide such support
voluntarily.
3. As part of a global effort, developed country Parties should continue to take
the lead in mobilizing climate finance from a wide variety of sources, instruments
and channels, noting the significant role of public funds, through a variety of
actions, including supporting country-driven strategies, and taking into account the
needs and priorities of developing country Parties. Such mobilization of climate
finance should represent a progression beyond previous efforts.
4. The provision of scaled-up financial resources should aim to achieve a
balance between adaptation and mitigation, taking into account country-driven
strategies, and the priorities and needs of developing country Parties, especially
those that are particularly vulnerable to the adverse effects of climate change and
have significant capacity constraints, such as the least developed countries and
small island developing States, considering the need for public and grant-based
resources for adaptation.
5. Developed country Parties shall biennially communicate indicative
quantitative and qualitative information related to paragraphs 1 and 3 of this
Article, as applicable, including, as available, projected levels of public financial
resources to be provided to developing country Parties. Other Parties providing
resources are encouraged to communicate biennially such information on a
voluntary basis.
6. The global stocktake referred to in Article 14 shall take into account the
relevant information provided by developed country Parties and/or Agreement
bodies on efforts related to climate finance.


7. Developed country Parties shall provide transparent and consistent
information on support for developing country Parties provided and mobilized
through public interventions biennially in accordance with the modalities,
procedures and guidelines to be adopted by the Conference of the Parties serving as
the meeting of the Parties to this Agreement, at its first session, as stipulated in
Article 13, paragraph 13. Other Parties are encouraged to do so.
8. The Financial Mechanism of the Convention, including its operating entities,
shall serve as the financial mechanism of this Agreement.
9. The institutions serving this Agreement, including the operating entities of
the Financial Mechanism of the Convention, shall aim to ensure efficient access to
financial resources through simplified approval procedures and enhanced readiness
support for developing country Parties, in particular for the least developed
countries and small island developing States, in the context of their national
climate strategies and plans.

[bojanglesman]

In the end, if Trump doesn't get re-elected in 2020, this may not matter too much with regards to the Paris Accord itself.  From what I understand the agreement doesn't go into effect until around about the time of our election in 2020.  If he doesn't get re-elected, I'm quite positive the new president will be happy to hop right back on board with this agreement with little time lost.

The real issue is Trump bringing fossil fuels back to the forefront in an attempt to ratchet up our energy independence at the expense of the environment long-term.  This is the issue whether or not the US in a part of the Paris Accord.  Even if the US were a part of it still, I would not expect Donald Trump's administration to be too concerned with meeting any goals or paying anything into it at all seeing that it has no real force behind it.  So then it becomes a question of how much it matters just having the US name in the agreement.  Hell, the Paris Accord might be better off without this administration in it.  Having the Trump administration not meet goals and not give money as outlined would probably just discourage some other countries from trying as hard to stick to it.

[Fenwyr]

Because that's in the agreement

Article 9
1. Developed country Parties shall provide financial resources to assist
developing country Parties with respect to both mitigation and adaptation in
continuation of their existing obligations under the Convention.
2. Other Parties are encouraged to provide or continue to provide such support
voluntarily.
3. As part of a global effort, developed country Parties should continue to take
the lead in mobilizing climate finance from a wide variety of sources, instruments
and channels, noting the significant role of public funds, through a variety of
actions, including supporting country-driven strategies, and taking into account the
needs and priorities of developing country Parties. Such mobilization of climate
finance should represent a progression beyond previous efforts.
4. The provision of scaled-up financial resources should aim to achieve a
balance between adaptation and mitigation, taking into account country-driven
strategies, and the priorities and needs of developing country Parties, especially
those that are particularly vulnerable to the adverse effects of climate change and
have significant capacity constraints, such as the least developed countries and
small island developing States, considering the need for public and grant-based
resources for adaptation.
5. Developed country Parties shall biennially communicate indicative
quantitative and qualitative information related to paragraphs 1 and 3 of this
Article, as applicable, including, as available, projected levels of public financial
resources to be provided to developing country Parties. Other Parties providing
resources are encouraged to communicate biennially such information on a
voluntary basis.
6. The global stocktake referred to in Article 14 shall take into account the
relevant information provided by developed country Parties and/or Agreement
bodies on efforts related to climate finance.


7. Developed country Parties shall provide transparent and consistent
information on support for developing country Parties provided and mobilized
through public interventions biennially in accordance with the modalities,
procedures and guidelines to be adopted by the Conference of the Parties serving as
the meeting of the Parties to this Agreement, at its first session, as stipulated in
Article 13, paragraph 13. Other Parties are encouraged to do so.
8. The Financial Mechanism of the Convention, including its operating entities,
shall serve as the financial mechanism of this Agreement.
9. The institutions serving this Agreement, including the operating entities of
the Financial Mechanism of the Convention, shall aim to ensure efficient access to
financial resources through simplified approval procedures and enhanced readiness
support for developing country Parties, in particular for the least developed
countries and small island developing States, in the context of their national
climate strategies and plans.

Well, yeah.  Volunteering to assist you with your pub tab, is a whole lot different that being forced to pay for your pub tab. 

[Tommy]

I'm at the pub

[dcm1602]

Well, yeah.  Volunteering to assist you with your pub tab, is a whole lot different that being forced to pay for your pub tab. 

How about agreeing to pay for some guy on the other side of the world to open up his own pub?

I'm not too keen on that

[Badger]

So was the Paris Accord an unenforceable meaningless agreement, or was it a terrible deal that was going to funnel millions of dollars from the US to pooper countries? Because the defenders of this move can't seem to get their story straight.

[dcm1602]

So was the Paris Accord an unenforceable meaningless agreement, or was it a terrible deal that was going to funnel millions of dollars from the US to pooper countries? Because the defenders of this move can't seem to get their story straight.

You realize the exact same argument could be used against the people who are for it?

[Badger]

You realize the exact same argument could be used against the people who are for it?

Not really. None of the people for it are arguing that it was meaningless.