U.S. Politics

[Fenwyr]

I was really referring more to doctors anesthesiologist and excrement like that. Having to go to school and take out loans for 8-12 years to get paid dick really isn't worth it. Same thing with PAs and stuff like that as well.

You're easily talking 200k+ in student loans, and that's on the low end of the spectrum. Plus not having a full time job until your mid to early 30s

Government getting involved makes all that stuff less attractive.

As far as the other parts of healthcare all its really going to do is make ratios work, and pass off the work of registered professionals to aids and techs and stuff.

No question asked a government run system cuts costs, but what it will do to quality and access to care (waiting time)  is a whole different story.

This is incorrect on so many levels.  No, doctors do not make 'dick' in a single payer system.  And no, they do not have trouble paying off their student loans and eventually making a fortune.

There is not a shortage of doctors or doctors in training in single payer countries.  There just isn't.  When the US goes single payer, it will level the playing field even more globally.

A major benefit would be doctors becoming doctors to help people, not simply to become millionaires.

Eliminating profiteering insurance companies from the equation, and regulating drug companies (like they are in all 1st world countries) would pay for the system itself.

[Johnny English]

Average doctor's salary in Canada - $225K

Average doctor's salary in the US - $210K

[dcm1602]

According to the NYT yall wrong

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/?_r=0

It's a few years old but I doubt things change drastically

And this is the first thing to come up on Google but I have no idea how reliable the site is

http://oureverydaylife.com/effects-socialized-medicine-doctors-salaries-35046.html

[Johnny English]

Practically, that means Canadian doctors have an average annual income (before taxes) of a little more than $225,000.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/how-much-are-canadian-doctors-paid/article7750697/

With the amount of specialisation and the difference by province it's obviously a pretty rounded number, but your assertion that publicly administered single payer systems mean that a) doctors get paid less and b) fewer people want to become doctors is horseshit. Do you think 18 year olds with a hankering to read medicine say "freak that, I'm not doing it if I only get $150K a year"?

[dcm1602]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/how-much-are-canadian-doctors-paid/article7750697/

With the amount of specialisation and the difference by province it's obviously a pretty rounded number, but your assertion that publicly administered single payer systems mean that a) doctors get paid less and b) fewer people want to become doctors is horseshit. Do you think 18 year olds with a hankering to read medicine say "freak that, I'm not doing it if I only get $150K a year"?

I read that article too and it's got flaws all over. For starters it only factors in gross pay, which doesn't include their office employees and etc. And later pulls a number out as a self reported guess of how much that costs.

Second 18 year olds aren't going to medschool. Typically people that go to medschool have lived in the real world and graduated undergrad.

8-10 years of medical school and residency 300k in student loans worth 150k with ridiculous tax rates is a very different story.

And countries all over the world are already having a shortage of specialist. As people are living longer and baby boomers aging were already looking at scarcity of healthcare providers. A socialized system could make it worse.

[dcm1602]

I realize that any of us getting involved in this argument makes us stubborn asses, as nobody is going to change anybodys opinion.

The point I was attempting to make was any change would have significant negative consequences (and yes significant positive ones as well)

I think this outlines the pros and cons in a much more organized fashion presumably backed by facts

http://apecsec.org/socialized-medicine-pros-and-cons/

I think any reasonable person would be able to see that there are good and bad things about it. Anyone who thinks Omg how can anybody not like socialized healthcare it's the greatest is as stubborn and ignorant as any Trump supporter. Even I will concede that there would be numerous benefits to socialized medicine, economies of scale would allow for substantial cost savings.

I just tend to think that socialized medicine also negatively impacts a decent percentage of the population as well

[Johnny English]

There are some reasonable arguments in that article but there are also some spurious ones. The median household income in Canada is $76K per annum; median household healthcare expenditure via tax is $11K, which is a far cry from the 25% claimed. Social healthcare is far from the only difference between the US and most of the rest of the OECD, so it's pretty unreasonable to claim that healthcare is the sole difference.

It also makes an illogical argument about wait times; it's a well established phenomenon that significant amounts of people in the US will avoid going to see a doctor about a medical issue because they're scared of the cost. Claiming that making healthcare too expensive for people to use reduces wait times to see a doctor is technically correct but entirely misses the point of what it's trying to argue.

[Badger]

I'm all for basic healthcare being run by the government but we'd have to essentially get rid of obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid, and essentially start over. And you can't force every practitioner to accept government health care, but the local GPs and specialized ones could. Basically it should be the cheapest option. Medication. aside from controlled substances, should also be included. Maybe limit it to the generic brands.

That's part of why I was against the ACA. It didn't feel like a move toward a better system (and I wasn't necessarily in favor of single payer at the time). It felt like tacking a bunch of excrement on to an already deeply flawed system.

[ukilledkenny]

Student loan reform seems like a good idea all of a sudden... But then you will rant about the people who didn't get a useful enough degree for your liking.

[dcm1602]

Student loan reform seems like a good idea all of a sudden... But then you will rant about the people who didn't get a useful enough degree for your liking.

If anyone can't pay for their degree, supply and demand suggests it wasn't very useful. Or they should have chosen a more  affordable school.

Personally i think a better solution would be to promote more state schools. If people opt to go to an expensive private school that's their decision.

[Johnny English]

If anyone can't pay for their degree, it wasn't very useful.

That statement assumes that the only value of getting a degree, to both the student and society as a whole, is to enable someone to earn as much money as possible.

[dcm1602]

That statement assumes that the only value of getting a degree, to both the student and society as a whole, is to enable someone to earn as much money as possible.

It suggests that college is an investment, and investments should generate a return on that initial investment.

The fact is there are a LOT of shitty degrees out there. And there's a tremendous amount of personal choice in colleges. If you chose to get a excrement degree from an overpriced college why should somebody else be forced to pay for that?

[Johnny English]

It suggests that college is an investment, and investments should generate a return on that initial investment.

The fact is there are a LOT of shitty degrees out there. And there's a tremendous amount of personal choice in colleges. If you chose to get a excrement degree from an overpriced college why should somebody else be forced to pay for that?

Because many people do degrees in subject for which they have a talent and a passion, from which society can gain significant benefit, but for which there isn't a huge salary to be realised.

[dcm1602]

And it doesn't just assume that the point of a degree is to make as much money as possible.

Society deems a doctor is far more valuable than say a art major. Which is why doctors get paid more than artist or whatever.

This is significantly oversimplified absolutely, but society shouldn't have to fund somebody's excrement decision

[dcm1602]

Because many people do degrees in subject for which they have a talent and a passion, from which society can gain significant benefit, but for which there isn't a huge salary to be realised.

Somebody's talent and passion doesn't mean anybody should have to fund it.

And if it was a "significant benefit"  to society, then they would get paid more.

And if that's what you say is truly the case, then these people should be more economical and go to inexpensive state schools that are more affordable.