U.S. Politics

[casman02]

Phil Mattingly ‏@Phil_Mattingly  25m25 minutes ago
Introducing Donald Trump: former Ohio State great/New York Jets All-Pro Center Nick Mangold

[Ignatius J Reilly]

I'm not too surprised.  He stumped for Romney in 2012.

[Jumbo]

CA raising minimum wage to $15/hr by 2022. Which is dumb.

[Johnny English]

CA raising minimum wage to $15/hr by 2022. Which is dumb.

Why? Every time implementation of or an increase to the minimum wage is proposed there are apocalyptic predictions, and every time they prove to be completely false. What makes this different?

[Jumbo]

Why? Every time implementation of or an increase to the minimum wage is proposed there are apocalyptic predictions, and every time they prove to be completely false. What makes this different?

It's not an apocalyptic prediction, it'll just end up hurting small businesses and the void left from that will be taken over by the bigger businesses, e.g. Wal-Mart, who ironically the people who campaign for this type of thing rally against.

Minimum wage increase drive low skilled workers out of the workforce too since it makes it much harder for them to compete against those who already made $15/hr. There's a reason that socialist havens in Scandinavia have had their workers' unions rally against minimum wage laws (and they still don't have them), and that's because it hurts workers.

[MBGreen]

CA raising minimum wage to $15/hr by 2022. Which is dumb.

My first part time job when i was high school paid minimum wage...it was $5.25/hr.  This was back in 1994.

In American funds, that would've been 30 cents.

[Johnny English]

It's not an apocalyptic prediction, it'll just end up hurting small businesses and the void left from that will be taken over by the bigger businesses, e.g. Wal-Mart, who ironically the people who campaign for this type of thing rally against.

Minimum wage increase drive low skilled workers out of the workforce too since it makes it much harder for them to compete against those who already made $15/hr. There's a reason that socialist havens in Scandinavia have had their workers' unions rally against minimum wage laws (and they still don't have them), and that's because it hurts workers.

Same old tired argument. There's literally no good data to support that (and the right wing attacks on Seattle have already been disproven as being based on bad/selective data, so don't bother with that one). In principle there might even be some truth to it, but unfortunately the right wing in general have cried wolf so many times now on minimum wage and been wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME, so I'm not inclined to give the rhetoric a fair listen any more.

Let's see what happens over the next couple of years in Seattle before we form any kind of actual firm opinion on whether it's a good idea or not for California to aim for a target six years away.

[Jumbo]

Same old tired argument. There's literally no good data to support that (and the right wing attacks on Seattle have already been disproven as being based on bad/selective data, so don't bother with that one). In principle there might even be some truth to it, but unfortunately the right wing in general have cried wolf so many times now on minimum wage and been wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME, so I'm not inclined to give the rhetoric a fair listen any more.

Let's see what happens over the next couple of years in Seattle before we form any kind of actual firm opinion on whether it's a good idea or not for California to aim for a target six years away.

Sorry, I forgot right wing argument = bad argument

[Johnny English]

Sorry, I forgot right wing argument = bad argument

No, that's not what I said. I even accepted that there might be some truth to it. What I said is that the argument has been made, and been proven incorrect, a lot of times already. Of course there's an upper limit for a minimum wage past which point the benefits are outweighed by negative impacts, but given we haven't yet reached that point despite every single implementation of MW being greeted with howls of terror about the impending financial apocalypse coming from the right, the argument has less weight through its dilution.

This is what happens when we allow politicians to rule through rhetoric rather than reason. If the right wing wants its arguments to be listened to it needs to stop making spurious ones based on ideology rather than facts.

[Jumbo]

No, that's not what I said. I even accepted that there might be some truth to it. What I said is that the argument has been made, and been proven incorrect, a lot of times already. Of course there's an upper limit for a minimum wage past which point the benefits are outweighed by negative impacts, but given we haven't yet reached that point despite every single implementation of MW being greeted with howls of terror about the impending financial apocalypse coming from the right, the argument has less weight through its dilution.

This is what happens when we allow politicians to rule through rhetoric rather than reason. If the right wing wants its arguments to be listened to it needs to stop making spurious ones based on ideology rather than facts.

I'm not arguing that a moderate increase in the minimum wage can never help. Rather (and I probably should have phrased this better) such a drastic increase in a very populous and large state will likely hurt, even if it raises over a 5-year period

[Tommy]

No, that's not what I said. I even accepted that there might be some truth to it. What I said is that the argument has been made, and been proven incorrect, a lot of times already. Of course there's an upper limit for a minimum wage past which point the benefits are outweighed by negative impacts, but given we haven't yet reached that point despite every single implementation of MW being greeted with howls of terror about the impending financial apocalypse coming from the right, the argument has less weight through its dilution.

This is what happens when we allow politicians to rule through rhetoric rather than reason. If the right wing wants its arguments to be listened to it needs to stop making spurious ones based on ideology rather than facts.

Can you provide examples of where it has been proven incorrect?

[Johnny English]

Can you provide examples of where it has been proven incorrect?

Yes. The implementation of the minimum wage in the UK by the Blair government in 1999. The Conservative Party mounted a heavy and sustained campaign to tell the populace how terrible it would be, how it was a death knell for business small and large alike, and how it would lead to increased unemployment as employers were saddled with unmanageable wage bills. You know, the usual anti-MW argument.

Between 1997 and 2010, the UK's GDP per capita outperformed any other country in the G6 annd unemployment levels remained at unprecedented low levels.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/uk-growth-and-productivity-1997-to-2008/

http://www.statista.com/statistics/279898/unemployment-rate-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

[Fenwyr]

Can you provide examples of where it has been proven incorrect?

This is the Glen Beck argument.  Can you prove to me that Wendy doesn't hate the Smurfs?

The burden of proof should always be on the prosecution.

[Tommy]

Yes. The implementation of the minimum wage in the UK by the Blair government in 1999. The Conservative Party mounted a heavy and sustained campaign to tell the populace how terrible it would be, how it was a death knell for business small and large alike, and how it would lead to increased unemployment as employers were saddled with unmanageable wage bills. You know, the usual anti-MW argument.

Between 1997 and 2010, the UK's GDP per capita outperformed any other country in the G6 annd unemployment levels remained at unprecedented low levels.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/uk-growth-and-productivity-1997-to-2008/

http://www.statista.com/statistics/279898/unemployment-rate-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

I ask for an example, and you provide me with one from a completely different country.

[Tommy]

This is the Glen Beck argument.  Can you prove to me that Wendy doesn't hate the Smurfs?

The burden of proof should always be on the prosecution.

So just do it and hope for the best?