U.S. Politics

[Johnny English]

I just meant that the political/media landscape of today, as opposed to 20 years ago, is the reason why incumbents have it easy.

I think your point is essentially correct in all political systems; it's less relevant in the US with its term limits, but there's a political maxim that oppositions don't win elections, incumbents lose them.

[dcm1602]

What's NOT moderate about it.  I wanted single payer.  Obama wanted single payer.  He made a compromise to ensure that people would be covered one way or the other.  If you don't see how it's going to save this country billions in the long term...  You need to go back to school.

The only waste of time is YOU talking politics.

Fox News is a hell of a drug.

Yeah im the stupid one.

5 minutes after saying "The right should be happy, Obama is as moderate of a democrat as you can ask for"

"Obama wanted a single payer system"

A single payer system is moderate?

REALLY ?!

REALLY REALLY !?!?

And this isnt going to save the country billions, you clearly havent been following well anything in regards to Obamacare. its an incredibly incredibly inefficient system. Its basically a bad hybrid system that bogs up private healthcare with increased regulations drastically driving up the prices (which it has). And the only reason its supposed to "work" is because it almost forces young people to subsidize healthcare for older individuals.

I personally believe they implemented such an inefficient system as a preface to a single payer system, because eventually people are going to say wow look at how much money were wasting, lets just switch to single payer. And it ultimately might work.

And a single payer system would be DRASTICALLY more efficient/cheaper than the current Obamacare garbage which we have.

I am NOT an advocate for a single payer system, but rather I am simply saying it would be much much much more cost effective than the current excrement which just got implemented.

Either way the point is no sane freaking person thinks Obama is moderate, NONE. Youre just such an Obama groupie that you cant seem to  acknowledge that.

And throwing fox news in there, cute.  Except I dont like the right, I think theyre freaking retarded as well. Im all about who is going to grow the economy the most, while keeping taxes and spending the lowest. All the other excrement is irrelevant garbage to me.

[dcm1602]

I wasn't talking about Obamacare, I was referring to your specific statement that "Big Govt involvement in your healthcare isn't moderate at all whatsoever." Moderate and indeed right wing governments all around the world are far more involved in healthcare than the US government, as they should be. Healthcare is a basic human right.

I have no interest in getting into the healthcare is a basic human right argument because its too muddled (ie factoring in people who smoke, are morbidly obese, live off fast food etc)

But forcing people to buy it, making young people pay multi thousand dollar fines if they dont ? Giving out birthcontrol, or forcing people to pay for someone elses abortions (again dont care if youre pro life or pro choice, I think this is something people should pay for on their own, not dump on the tax payer)

[Fenwyr]

Yeah im the stupid one.

5 minutes after saying "The right should be happy, Obama is as moderate of a democrat as you can ask for"

"Obama wanted a single payer system"

A single payer system is moderate?

REALLY ?!

REALLY REALLY !?!?

And this isnt going to save the country billions, you clearly havent been following well anything in regards to Obamacare. its an incredibly incredibly inefficient system. Its basically a bad hybrid system that bogs up private healthcare with increased regulations drastically driving up the prices (which it has). And the only reason its supposed to "work" is because it almost forces young people to subsidize healthcare for older individuals.

I personally believe they implemented such an inefficient system as a preface to a single payer system, because eventually people are going to say wow look at how much money were wasting, lets just switch to single payer. And it ultimately might work.

And a single payer system would be DRASTICALLY more efficient/cheaper than the current Obamacare garbage which we have.

I am NOT an advocate for a single payer system, but rather I am simply saying it would be much much much more cost effective than the current excrement which just got implemented.

Either way the point is no sane freaking person thinks Obama is moderate, NONE. Youre just such an Obama groupie that you cant seem to  acknowledge that.

And throwing fox news in there, cute.  Except I dont like the right, I think theyre freaking retarded as well. Im all about who is going to grow the economy the most, while keeping taxes and spending the lowest. All the other excrement is irrelevant garbage to me.

You may not 'like' the right, but you sure talk like that's all you listen to.

The affordable care act is not about the economy.  It is about ensuring that our populace has health care.  By creating the marketplaces they are forcing insurance companies to fight for subscribers.  You know, free market and all that excrement.

It also forces said insurance companies to cover stuff that they didn't in the past.  Now the billion dollar companies have to cover the expenses of serious illness, rather than just dropping people and pushing the cost to the tax payers.

You talk about minutia like abortions and birth control.  Do you see why people think you are a right wing nut job?

How much does an abortion cost compared to an uninsured guy showing up to the emergency room with a brain tumor?  How much does birth control cost compared to a child being a ward of the state, or an uninsured woman shoving a hanger up her lady garden and piercing her uterus?

A very, very small minority of people on excrement health care plans will see their rates go up.  Do some research before you spout this tripe.

[dcm1602]

You may not 'like' the right, but you sure talk like that's all you listen to.

The affordable care act is not about the economy.  It is about ensuring that our populace has health care.  By creating the marketplaces they are forcing insurance companies to fight for subscribers.  You know, free market and all that excrement.

It also forces said insurance companies to cover stuff that they didn't in the past.  Now the billion dollar companies have to cover the expenses of serious illness, rather than just dropping people and pushing the cost to the tax payers.

You talk about minutia like abortions and birth control.  Do you see why people think you are a right wing nut job?

How much does an abortion cost compared to an uninsured guy showing up to the emergency room with a brain tumor?  How much does birth control cost compared to a child being a ward of the state, or an uninsured woman shoving a hanger up her lady garden and piercing her uterus?

A very, very small minority of people on excrement health care plans will see their rates go up.  Do some research before you spout this tripe.

yeah it "forces" them to cover things they didnt in the past. Guess what happens now that theyre forced to cover them, they increase their rates. 

Im not against abortions and birth control, I think they are necessary parts of our society and culture. What I am against is me having to pay for someones and call it "healthcare"

Oh yeah I choose to run around and freak a bunch of dudes so I need "healthcare" to make sure I dont get knocked up.

You know how effective a condom is when used properly ? 99.99%. Condoms are available for FREE all over the place or dirt cheap elsewhere, and prevent STDS (which are all over the place).

So dont give me this excrement that oh yeah yeah free birth control and abortions are a necessary part of healthcare. Use a freaking condom, or pay for your own abortions and birth control. 

How much does an abortion + antibiotics to treat that STD cost compared to a condom ?

And the "very very small minority" will see their rates go up is bullshit.

I work part time on the side for a medical coding and billing company. Health care prices going up is quite common.

Just like people who "could keep their plans if they wanted it" even though millions of people got dropped.

[dcm1602]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/11/04/49-state-analysis-obamacare-to-increase-individual-market-premiums-by-avg-of-41-subsidies-flow-to-elderly/

Today, the Manhattan Institute released the most comprehensive analysis yet conducted of premiums under Obamacare for people who shop for coverage on their own. Here’s what we learned. In the average state, Obamacare will increase underlying premiums by 41 percent. As we have long expected, the steepest hikes will be imposed on the healthy, the young, and the male. And Obamacare’s taxpayer-funded subsidies will primarily benefit those nearing retirement—people who, unlike the young, have had their whole lives to save for their health-care needs.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101158964

"(F)ederally mandated health care changes will require Comcast-NBCUniversal to pay new fees and implement plan design changes that will contribute to the increased cost of our plans," says the open enrollment guide for CNBC.com's parent company, where employee health care premiums are rising by double digits, and deductibles in some cases are doubling.

Guess I need to do some research though.

Whered you do yours? Obama promised you that theyll go down, so you just took his word for it right?

[Fenwyr]

yeah it "forces" them to cover things they didnt in the past. Guess what happens now that theyre forced to cover them, they increase their rates. 

Im not against abortions and birth control, I think they are necessary parts of our society and culture. What I am against is me having to pay for someones and call it "healthcare"

Oh yeah I choose to run around and freak a bunch of dudes so I need "healthcare" to make sure I dont get knocked up.

You know how effective a condom is when used properly ? 99.99%. Condoms are available for FREE all over the place or dirt cheap elsewhere, and prevent STDS (which are all over the place).

So dont give me this excrement that oh yeah yeah free birth control and abortions are a necessary part of healthcare. Use a freaking condom, or pay for your own abortions and birth control. 

How much does an abortion + antibiotics to treat that STD cost compared to a condom ?

And the "very very small minority" will see their rates go up is bullshit.

I work part time on the side for a medical coding and billing company. Health care prices going up is quite common.

Just like people who "could keep their plans if they wanted it" even though millions of people got dropped.

You babble like that and still missed the ENTIRE point of my post.

You are arguing about bullshit like birth control and abortions.  I will agree, just use a freaking condom, but why shouldn't they be free as well?  Unplanned births cost the taxpayers far more than the birth control that could have avoided them.  This is a simple concept.  Simple.  Get it?

And you say you're not a right wing nut job?

Oh yeah I choose to run around and freak a bunch of dudes so I need "healthcare" to make sure I dont get knocked up.

[mj2sexay]

What's NOT moderate about it. I wanted single payer.  Obama wanted single payer. He made a compromise to ensure that people would be covered one way or the other.  If you don't see how it's going to save this country billions in the long term...  You need to go back to school.

The only waste of time is YOU talking politics.

Fox News is a hell of a drug.

Do you know what single payer would do to the standard of care we receive in this country? Obama was forced to reject single-payer because the very idea is so fundamentally rooted against capitalism, that people would've been even more pissed then they are now over your "moderate" plan. The ACA according to polls is wildly unpopular. Why the hell would this country want to embrace a single payer program?

Anyone with half a brain that is deciding to either go into healthcare or technology would run far the hell away from becoming a doctor unless they want to get saddled with debt from medical school payments and 6-figure malpractice insurance.

Lol at the notion that the ACA is moderate because single-payer was actually an option.

[Fenwyr]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/11/04/49-state-analysis-obamacare-to-increase-individual-market-premiums-by-avg-of-41-subsidies-flow-to-elderly/


http://www.cnbc.com/id/101158964
Guess I need to do some research though.

Whered you do yours? Obama promised you that theyll go down, so you just took his word for it right?

Premiums HAVE gone down.  The folks in those studies will get subsidies (you know, tax breaks) on their premiums.  They will also have health care plans that don't bankrupt them if they do get sick.  And I know you are obviously not a budding economist, but who do you think pays now when someone goes bankrupt because they get sick?

Simple question for a simple person.

[Johnny English]

I'm not really interested in getting involved in this argument, largely because I don't have the knowledge to do so, but I'd just like to put my thanks to dcm on record for the new signature.

[Fenwyr]

Do you know what single payer would do to the standard of care we receive in this country? Obama was forced to reject single-payer because the very idea is so fundamentally rooted against capitalism, that people would've been even more pissed then they are now over your "moderate" plan. The ACA according to polls is wildly unpopular. Why the hell would this country want to embrace a single payer program?

Anyone with half a brain that is deciding to either go into healthcare or technology would run far the hell away from becoming a doctor unless they want to get saddled with debt from medical school payments and 6-figure malpractice insurance.

Lol at the notion that the ACA is moderate because single-payer was actually an option.

Bad argument.  Unless you are going to try and tell me that doctors in Europe are living in cardboard boxes and/or that we don't have some of the lowest scores in health care in civilized countries.

I would have supported (and still would support) college loan breaks for people that go into public service.  Obama himself has argued for this over and over.

Again, I ask anyone to tell me how ACA is not moderate.  Insurance companies still keep getting richer, so what's the problem?

[dcm1602]

Premiums HAVE gone down.  The folks in those studies will get subsidies (you know, tax breaks) on their premiums.  They will also have health care plans that don't bankrupt them if they do get sick.  And I know you are obviously not a budding economist, but who do you think pays now when someone goes bankrupt because they get sick?

Simple question for a simple person.

A subsidie paying for part of your premium =/= premiums going down. It means the government is paying part of your healthcare premium.

And the overwhelming majority of americans are NOT eligible for these subsidies, therefore their rates are going up.

 And yes tax payers pay when someone gets sick, taxpayers also pay for the subsides, and the ACA, and a billion other things.

None of this changes the fact that premiums went UP not down under Obamacare.

[dcm1602]

Bad argument.  Unless you are going to try and tell me that doctors in Europe are living in cardboard boxes and/or that we don't have some of the lowest scores in health care in civilized countries.

I would have supported (and still would support) college loan breaks for people that go into public service.  Obama himself has argued for this over and over.

Again, I ask anyone to tell me how ACA is not moderate.  Insurance companies still keep getting richer, so what's the problem?

The ACA is just as moderate as Sarah Palin.

[Johnny English]

You know how to reduce the premiums for everyone, don't you? Nationalise health insurance and take the profit centres out of it.

You want lower healthcare costs, that's the way to do it.

[dcm1602]

You know how to reduce the premiums for everyone, don't you? Nationalise health insurance and take the profit centres out of it.

You want lower healthcare costs, that's the way to do it.

I said that earlier, that a nationalized (socialized) system would be better/more cost efficient than our current system (by current system I mean the ACA garbage, not whatever you want to call what we had prior)

I dont think its the right way to go because it hurts the quality of care, increases wait times (sometimes drastically), requires your citizens to not be lazy disgusting fuckings who dont give a excrement about their health and to involve themselves in preventative care. But it would be better than the system under the ACA which is really the worst of both worlds.

Either we improve the OLD system (ie a capitalistic model) or move to the left in a nationalized mode. The ACA is a horrendous inefficient hybrid model and is just plain old wasteful and jacking up the prices while not doing much to improve it.