U.S. Politics

[Miamipuck]

Now my opinion has changed. All immigration should be banned.

Haha I don't blame you.


Tommy, reading my post I didn't mean to sound so harsh. Sorry

[Tommy]

Haha I don't blame you.


Tommy, reading my post I didn't mean to sound so harsh. Sorry

Haha I didn't take any offense. My parents were immigrants, too, but they kicked their asses getting here legally. I have relatives who did so illegally, and they've been deported. No sympathy. If you want to cut corners, better be prepared for the consequences. Some managed to stay because they convinced the court that they're refugees, etc, but there are plenty of European and other non Mexicans getting into trouble. In fact, even at the border, a quarter of illegals apprehended a year are non-Mexicans.

It's being labeled a race issue just because the majority of illegals are Mexican, and because the race card is probably the most useful tool in the Left's arsenal. It's plays into the golden rule of politics in this country: if one side supports something, the other side has to be against it by any means necessary. So when a republican talks about protecting the borders and stopping illegal immigration, a democrat will counter with "I for one am not racist and love the Mexican people." It's bullshit, and people buy into that. After years of the same charade, anti-illegal immigration has turned into anti-Brown people. And bleeding hearts are therefore incapable of recognizing it as a problem as a result.

Sort of like how any talk about reforming social programs is immediately shot down as "anti-black". Politics Fuckn suck.

[bojanglesman]

Tommy and Puck.  Poster children for immediate deportation.

[Johnny English]

Interesting that Tommy's decrying people for playing the racism card, and yet he's the only one talking about race.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

Sure there is, let them stay. Fifty years ago if they were from Europe not a second thought would be wasted on this.

Well, that's a silly thing to say.  50 years ago there was little illegal immigration from Europe.  The numbers aren't even close to what they are today.  We permitted high numbers of random immigration when we had a need for it thanks to the rapid explosion of industry.  Hell, 52 years ago we still had the Bracero program which brought Mexicans here in the easiest manner possible and allowed them to return home freely.  We closed things off when we didn't have the resources.  We talk about Mexicans now because insane numbers come here without that demonstrated need for them and they're easy to deport because they share a border.  It's a poor comparison because it was an entirely different time for reasons that have nothing to do with race.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

Oh, and Ellis Island, which served immigration from Europe, closed in 1964 for precisely the reason that we were trying to stop immigration everywhere, not just from Mexico.

[Jetaho]

Anybody watching the Republican debate tonight?  I know I'm not.

[Tommy]

Interesting that Tommy's decrying people for playing the racism card, and yet he's the only one talking about race.

Did you miss the post where Puck said that it's only an issue because of the type of people who are mainly coming here?

[Badger]

Anybody watching the Republican debate tonight?  I know I'm not.

I'm not watching only because my TV has been out since Monday. freaking DirecTV.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

Did you miss the post where Puck said that it's only an issue because of the type of people who are mainly coming here?

It's a very common argument, the same as people who say "We're all descended from immigrants!"  That's true, but that doesn't mean the situations are comparable.  They can decry the fact that America has grown too densely populated to support further lower class immigration.  It's silly to blame people's attitudes for that.

[Tommy]

It's a very common argument, the same as people who say "We're all descended from immigrants!"  That's true, but that doesn't mean the situations are comparable.  They can decry the fact that America has grown too densely populated to support further lower class immigration.  It's silly to blame people's attitudes for that.

What blows my mind is that you have people who have no problem with illegal immigration, and at the same time complain about low wages. Both are closely related. If you dilute the unskilled labor market with illegal immigrants, then that puts a hell of a lot of downward pressure on wages.

[Johnny English]

What blows my mind is that you have people who have no problem with illegal immigration, and at the same time complain about low wages. Both are closely related. If you dilute the unskilled labor market with illegal immigrants, then that puts a hell of a lot of downward pressure on wages.

Hang on though, I thought you free market lovers were all about allowing economic forces to dictate behaviour, not legislation? Isn't it largely proven that economic immigration, both legal and illegal, is a net benefit to the US economy?

[Tommy]

Hang on though, I thought you free market lovers were all about allowing economic forces to dictate behaviour, not legislation? Isn't it largely proven that economic immigration, both legal and illegal, is a net benefit to the US economy?

Funny you should say that, because adding more legislation (increasing minimum wage for instance) will increase demand for undocumented and unskilled labor. If you keep freaking with the system, you're going to end up with a lot of unwanted consequences.

You only think it's a net benefit because the supply of immigrants fills the demand for labor, which is there primarily as a result of American workers simply costing too much.

[Johnny English]

Funny you should say that, because adding more legislation (increasing minimum wage for instance) will increase demand for undocumented and unskilled labor. If you keep freaking with the system, you're going to end up with a lot of unwanted consequences.

You only think it's a net benefit because the supply of immigrants fills the demand for labor, which is there primarily as a result of American workers simply costing too much.

OK, so what you're saying is that the issue of illegal immigration is actually caused by American employers breaking the law because it's inconvenient to their profit margins. But rather than address that, you'd prefer instead to demonise people responding in an entirely economically rational way and then pin the blame for those circumstances on those Americans who are too bloody rude to just accept the poverty wages that employers want to pay.

Essentially, your argument boils down to "it's everybody's fault except the wealthy", when the reality is that if the American business community bought into their part of the core social contract, which is that everyone's in this thing together, there wouldn't be this issue in the first place.

[Tommy]

OK, so what you're saying is that the issue of illegal immigration is actually caused by American employers breaking the law because it's inconvenient to their profit margins. But rather than address that, you'd prefer instead to demonise people responding in an entirely economically rational way and then pin the blame for those circumstances on those Americans who are too bloody rude to just accept the poverty wages that employers want to pay.

Essentially, your argument boils down to "it's everybody's fault except the wealthy", when the reality is that if the American business community bought into their part of the core social contract, which is that everyone's in this thing together, there wouldn't be this issue in the first place.

Demonizing? They're breaking the law. Both the people who hire and the illegal immigrants themselves. It's not easy. Sure you can require that all contractors employ citizens or resident aliens, or you can police the border where the influx of immigrants are coming from. If I'm a struggling landscaping company, and there's an excess of illegals waiting around begging for low income work, it's hard to "do the right thing" and hire much more expensive unskilled labor. They're already here, and more and more are coming every day. You can legislate the hell out of the demand, but the demand will remain as long as the supply is plentiful and cheap. You make matters even worse by increasing minimum wage and requiring health benefits etc.

Japan is a good example of how immigration should be handled. Granted they benefit from being an island nation and where non-Japanese stick out like sore thumbs, but the country has enjoyed low income inequality and full employment for decades, all that despite a minimum wage of $5.50 to $7/hr. How? Because they don't have streams of low cost labor running around. They actually have the reverse problem: they need workers, and are running out of unskilled labor. How do they solve it? They have work programs on contract. Take hundreds of unskilled laborers from SE Asia, and assign them to a company for a year or so. When they're done, they go back. They get criticized for not just opening up their borders and letting anyone in, even getting called racist, but they're going about it in the absolute right way.