U.S. Politics

[Tommy]

My biggest problem is that the assholes in congress will allow the industry to export, which to me is patently stupid.

What do you mean "allow the industry to export"?


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[bojanglesman]

It sure would be nice if we could further develop collection from energy sources that don't freak up everything.  That big bright thing in the sky showers us with exponentially more clean energy than we could ever use.  Someday after I'm dead, we'll be able to harness it and not need anything else.  But we have to help people trying to do that and get out of the way.  Even if it isn't done perfectly yet, it's about going in that direction.  There is little downside to developing renewable resources unless you make money off one that isn't renewable.

[Tommy]

It sure would be nice if we could further develop collection from energy sources that don't freak up everything.  That big bright thing in the sky showers us with exponentially more clean energy than we could ever use.  Someday after I'm dead, we'll be able to harness it and not need anything else.  But we have to help people trying to do that and get out of the way.  Even if it isn't done perfectly yet, it's about going in that direction.  There is little downside to developing renewable resources unless you make money off one that isn't renewable.

Private money is already flowing through renewables. Wind is completely inefficient and expensive, we still don't know how to store solar energy effectively. Solar power can power your home during the day, but not in the evening when most people are home anyway. But anyway, it's being invested in. As of today outfitting your roof with solar panels will cost about $20k and will take about 15 years in energy savings just for you to break even. Things will improve, but it will take time, and won't need taxpayer money to get there. Besides, renewable energy is heavily subsidised anyway. Look what happened to some of the companies that went belly up after  haemorrhaging millions of taxpayer money.

Again, billions of private money is already being invested yearly in biofuels and hydro/wave/tidal, which is way more efficient.

If there's money to be made, especially in energy, people will invest in it.


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[bojanglesman]

Private money is already flowing through renewables. Wind is completely inefficient and expensive, we still don't know how to store solar energy effectively. Solar power can power your home during the day, but not in the evening when most people are home anyway. But anyway, it's being invested in. As of today outfitting your roof with solar panels will cost about $20k and will take about 15 years in energy savings just for you to break even. Things will improve, but it will take time, and won't need taxpayer money to get there. Besides, renewable energy is heavily subsidised anyway. Look what happened to some of the companies that went belly up after  haemorrhaging millions of taxpayer money.

Again, billions of private money is already being invested yearly in biofuels and hydro/wave/tidal, which is way more efficient.

If there's money to be made, especially in energy, people will invest in it.


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You seem to be speaking strictly from a business perspective.  I'm speaking from an environmental also.  Oil is a better business decision right now.  That doesn't make it right.  I'm not saying we need to massively dump government money into renewables.  Just stop rewarding going backwards.

[Miamipuck]

What do you mean "allow the industry to export"?


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As it stands right now, the industry has strict guidelines about exporting, like the fact they can not or can't very easily at all. That's simply a function of the country wanting to keep the petroleum we produce in house to be captured sort of speak. This is smart policy, especially considering for decades (since at least WW2) we were in a huge deficit with regard to the production/usage dynamic and we are already beholden to countries and political entities that freaking hate us.

Fast forward to today, we are now producing more petroleum then we are using. How long will it last? How long can it last? Nobody knows the freaking answer. But sure as the sun rises in the east the petroleum industry is getting every congressman's rooster sucked in the hope they can get rid of the onerous laws that make exporting of petroleum difficult. They were already on this last year in anticipation.

I say freak that, this country spent decades getting derriere fucked every which way it could by OPEC/Russia and all the countries in the assholes of the world that hate us. So the very day our tenuous new oil production exceeds usage, we start exporting? freak that freak that freak that.

 Build up stockpiles and reserves and do not allow exporting. Nobody knows how long this new revolution in production will last. For fracking to be profitable oil needs to be north of 90 bucks a barrel and that's the bear minimum. What happens if we have a prolonged slump in oil prices? Then fracking will be shelved and oil production will go down as will discovery and research into new techniques..................

Then you know what Tommy? We are back where the freak we started, having to blow the shieks in the middle east, get in bed with dictators like Chavez or Putin. So no we should not allow exporting, it's freaking patently freaking stupid.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

What new resources? And with respect to lowering dependence on foreign oil, first of all oil is bought and sold in the open market, so no one buys Saudi oil, Iraqi oil, etc. It's like any other commodity. Besides, increasing output in North America will lessen the share of output from re ME, lessening it's importance. Isn't that what we'd want?

I'm not saying that the industry is perfect, but it does get a lot of unfair criticism. People don't respect just how dependent we all are on the industry, and not just for energy.


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Did you not read what I said?  It doesn't sound like it when you argue in support of one of my points.

Facets of a new energy plan need to be regionally appropriate and tailored.  Wind in the plains, solar in the Southwest, algae based biofuel in regions with high water area (don't get me started on anti-nuclear power idiots).  Like I said, the pipeline is great if it bridges the gap.  It's not if we build it simply to extend the length of time the oil industry can profit hand over fist.  Get a better energy plan in place so oil can supplement rather than dominate energy production and I'm hugely supportive.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

You seem to be speaking strictly from a business perspective.  I'm speaking from an environmental also.  Oil is a better business decision right now.  That doesn't make it right.  I'm not saying we need to massively dump government money into renewables.  Just stop rewarding going backwards.

No, dude.  freak the habitability of the planet.  All that matters is money right now.

[Tommy]

As it stands right now, the industry has strict guidelines about exporting, like the fact they can not or can't very easily at all. That's simply a function of the country wanting to keep the petroleum we produce in house to be captured sort of speak. This is smart policy, especially considering for decades (since at least WW2) we were in a huge deficit with regard to the production/usage dynamic and we are already beholden to countries and political entities that freaking hate us.

Fast forward to today, we are now producing more petroleum then we are using. How long will it last? How long can it last? Nobody knows the freaking answer. But sure as the sun rises in the east the petroleum industry is getting every congressman's rooster sucked in the hope they can get rid of the onerous laws that make exporting of petroleum difficult. They were already on this last year in anticipation.

I say freak that, this country spent decades getting derriere fucked every which way it could by OPEC/Russia and all the countries in the assholes of the world that hate us. So the very day our tenuous new oil production exceeds usage, we start exporting? freak that freak that freak that.

 Build up stockpiles and reserves and do not allow exporting. Nobody knows how long this new revolution in production will last. For fracking to be profitable oil needs to be north of 90 bucks a barrel and that's the bear minimum. What happens if we have a prolonged slump in oil prices? Then fracking will be shelved and oil production will go down as will discovery and research into new techniques..................

Then you know what Tommy? We are back where the freak we started, having to blow the shieks in the middle east, get in bed with dictators like Chavez or Putin. So no we should not allow exporting, it's freaking patently freaking stupid.

The ban is only on crude oil exports. The U.S. is still one of the top exporters of refined oil and oil products in the world. Oil refineries in the US just buy crude oil cheaply, process it, then export the finished product. Allowing crude oil to be exported would be way more beneficial to the economy as well as shore up exploitation here that isn't as profitable if you can't export what you drill.


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[Tommy]

Did you not read what I said?  It doesn't sound like it when you argue in support of one of my points.

Facets of a new energy plan need to be regionally appropriate and tailored.  Wind in the plains, solar in the Southwest, algae based biofuel in regions with high water area (don't get me started on anti-nuclear power idiots).  Like I said, the pipeline is great if it bridges the gap.  It's not if we build it simply to extend the length of time the oil industry can profit hand over fist.  Get a better energy plan in place so oil can supplement rather than dominate energy production and I'm hugely supportive.

How can a pipeline bridge the gap between oil/gas and new energy?


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[Miamipuck]

The ban is only on crude oil exports. The U.S. is still one of the top exporters of refined oil and oil products in the world. Oil refineries in the US just buy crude oil cheaply, process it, then export the finished product. Allowing crude oil to be exported would be way more beneficial to the economy as well as shore up exploitation here that isn't as profitable if you can't export what you drill.


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I can see we wont agree on this and I am done. Allowing crude doesn't benefit this country one bit, it benefits, Exxon, BP, Chevron but 99.9% of the people of this country derive or will derive zero benefit from this. All it does is allow those companies to essentially arbitrage oil.

Edit: Allowing the export of refined products is fine. I was speaking of unrefined oil. I worded my response poorly.

[Tommy]

I can see we wont agree on this and I am done. Allowing crude doesn't benefit this country one bit, it benefits, Exxon, BP, Chevron but 99.9% of the people of this country derive or will derive zero benefit from this. All it does is allow those companies to essentially arbitrage oil.

Agree on what? Where do you think the crude is going? They're not just sticking it in the ground. It has to be sold to refineries, and right now the law is making those refineries rich because they can buy crude oil very cheap, and don't have to import. Those refineries, by the way, are owned by companies like Exxon, BP,  Chevron. They're making their money regardless.

Lifting the ban would promote more production here, which would lessen the ME's influence on the market.


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[Miamipuck]

Agree on what? Where do you think the crude is going? They're not just sticking it in the ground. It has to be sold to refineries, and right now the law is making those refineries rich because they can buy crude oil very cheap, and don't have to import. Those refineries, by the way, are owned by companies like Exxon, BP,  Chevron. They're making their money regardless.

Lifting the ban would promote more production here, which would lessen the ME's influence on the market.


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Well it seems to me having the ban in place worked just fine in getting production up. With the ban in place the US's production ramped up just fine. With net neutral oil production and usage, the ME would have zero influence on this country. There are also the strategic reserves, so not all oil is refined and shipped.

Also Exxon and Chevron etc all have vast production facilities and agreements in other countries. They don't need to export US originated oil. They can use or do whatever they want with oil produced from offshore sources. It's not like the oil produced here is their only source or their main source, it ain't.

[bojanglesman]

Norway exports nearly all of it's oil and uses the profits towards clean energy.  Kind of a weird dynamic there.  Using oil profits to promote not using oil.

http://freakonomics.com/2014/10/16/how-can-tiny-norway-afford-to-buy-so-many-teslas-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

[Fenwyr]

So if you don't like smartphones, would it be right to ask the government to prevent Apple from building a factory?


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Badger already got to the punch line on this one, so I will make a serious comment.

This argument is terrible Tommy.  If a company wanted to build on private and Indian land without the consent of those land owners, you are damn right the government should be involved.

Add to that the fact that keystone would pass directly over the largest aquifer in the US, and environmentalists have all the right in the world to get their panties in a bunch.

The jobs argument is also a joke.  Once the pipeline is built their will only be a skeleton crew left to monitor it.  At that point all of the money will be going to the oil elite.

Now...  If you could guarantee that there would never be a major leak (you can't) and guarantee that a sizable portion of the massive profits would go towards US infrastructure (never going to happen), then I would be all for it.

[AlioTheFool]

If you want to see how good the pipeline would be, package the bill with a massive reduction in the tax subsidies oil companies receive. Let's see if the pipeline ever gets built under those terms.