Jet Offensive
The Rest Of The Sports World => Designated Hitters Make Baseball Better => Topic started by: SixFeetDeep on January 27, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
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There is a growing belief amongst NL GM’s that the DH will be instituted for NL as early as 2021. FWIW.
Bowden
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In b4 Italian Seafood kills himself
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That sucks.
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National League pitchers hit .131/.162/.166 last year
INB4 doubleswitch strategy talk
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That sucks.
I actually like having the 2 leagues with the rules as they are with a small amount of inter league play
I do think it makes a ton of business sense to add the DH. You’re also squeezing 16 likely decent-above average hitters out of a starting spot
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That sucks.
You have a Barry Trotz led hockey team....you garner zero sympathy here.
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I’ve made my feeling known on this already. No need to rehash it.
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In b4 Italian Seafood kills himself
Baseball isn't worth killing one's self over. It's not like it's basketball.
National League pitchers hit .131/.162/.166 last year
INB4 doubleswitch strategy talk
If this is your argument you clearly don't understand the point.
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I’ve made my feeling known on this already. No need to rehash it.
True. They don't want to get it so they won't.
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True. They don't want to get it so they won't.
I don’t think MLB gets it either hence the rule change
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I don’t think MLB gets it either hence the rule change
It's been discussed before. Hard enough to stay awake through 10 pm starts, put the DH in and it will be impossible.
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It's been discussed before. Hard enough to stay awake through 10 pm starts, put the DH in and it will be impossible.
Put the DH in and your baseball fandom instantly increases.
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Baseball games have become pretty insufferable to me, so yeah, MLB clearly knows what it’s doing.
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Slash lines (since 2015):
Pitchers: .127/.157/.163; -3,766.2 wRAA, -17 wRC+
DH’s: .251/.326/.443; 457.7 wRAA, 105 wRC+
I just don’t see why anyone would want to watch a pitcher hit. It’s a complete waste of time for everyone
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It's been discussed before. Hard enough to stay awake through 10 pm starts, put the DH in and it will be impossible.
I checked the data provided to me by ESPN Stats & Info, focusing on 1997 to 2013 (interleague play started in 1997 and 2013 is the last full year in the data set).
My first check was the simplest. I divided all games into four categories: games between AL teams, those between NL teams, interleague games hosted by AL teams (which have the DH) and interleague games hosted by NL teams (which don’t). Games between AL teams were, on average, two minutes and 15 seconds longer than games between NL teams.
But that gap might be because certain AL teams — notably Boston and New York — are slower than NL teams and not because of different rules. Luckily, interleague and World Series games provide a useful test, because teams typically have played each opponent roughly the same number of times at home and away — albeit not necessarily in the same season. That should control for any effect from particular teams or matchups.
So, when the same two teams played each other in an NL park or an AL park, which game was longer?
On average, surprisingly, the longer game has been in the NL park — by 15 seconds. That calculation is based on more than 2,000 games each in NL and AL parks — defining interleague to include regular-season and World Series games between an AL team and an NL team.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-the-dh-rule-bane-of-baseball-purists-slowing-the-game-down/
Not really a valid argument when it’s a matter of minutes either way you slice it.
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-the-dh-rule-bane-of-baseball-purists-slowing-the-game-down/
Not really a valid argument when it’s a matter of minutes either way you slice it.
I wasn't referring to the length of the game as much as the overall dullness of a lineup with no pitcher's spot to manage around. The pitchers only bat one or two times per game at the most anymore, but the existence of the spot in the lineup brings the benches and strategy into the game from the 5th inning on, sometimes earlier. So stating how bad pitchers are at betting doesn't help your argument, it helps mine, because the whole point is you have to do something with that spot as the game moves along.
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As much as I talk smack about the NL, I really don't care that they don't have a DH. EXCEPT when they're playing an AL team--regardless of who is the home team.
Beyond the fact that I find absolutely no entertainment in watching pitchers hit, double-switches, whatever, AL pitchers don't regularly hit or run the bases. They only practice these things when they're preparing for interleague play. The chance of injury goes up for them, and that's the entirety of my issue with it.
They should let the NL continue to have pitchers hit, but whenever it's an interleague game, regardless of the home park, there should be a DH in effect. That solves every problem other than strict NL fans being upset about losing some "advantage" at home. But it's how the minor leagues work anyway.
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I wasn't referring to the length of the game as much as the overall dullness of a lineup with no pitcher's spot to manage around. The pitchers only bat one or two times per game at the most anymore, but the existence of the spot in the lineup brings the benches and strategy into the game from the 5th inning on, sometimes earlier. So stating how bad pitchers are at betting doesn't help your argument, it helps mine, because the whole point is you have to do something with that spot as the game moves along.
As opposed to the strategy a pitcher and catcher must employ all game long because there isn't an automatic out installed into every lineup for AL teams?
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As opposed to the strategy a pitcher and catcher must employ all game long because there isn't an automatic out installed into every lineup for AL teams?
Again you're focused on 1-2 plate appearances per team out of roughly 40, at the expense of a lot of strategy and an extra dimension to the whole game. And in those 1-2 plate appearances, the pitcher has a 80% chance of being an out instead of a 75% chance.
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I wasn't referring to the length of the game as much as the overall dullness of a lineup with no pitcher's spot to manage around. The pitchers only bat one or two times per game at the most anymore, but the existence of the spot in the lineup brings the benches and strategy into the game from the 5th inning on, sometimes earlier. So stating how bad pitchers are at betting doesn't help your argument, it helps mine, because the whole point is you have to do something with that spot as the game moves along.
I don’t watch baseball for the entertainment of a manager’s pitching staff decisions, I watch for the athletes. I think baseball manager is the least important coach in all of the major sports and breaking down their bullpen management every day over the course of an 162 game season is for the Facebook fans
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I don’t watch baseball for the entertainment of a manager’s pitching staff decisions, I watch for the athletes. I think baseball manager is the least important coach in all of the major sports and breaking down their bullpen management every day over the course of an 162 game season is for the Facebook fans
That's because you watch the American League. Not trying to be glib but that's the whole game, this is my point.
I mean they're athletes, yes, but most of the game is them standing there and figuring out who is going to do what next. In the NL that means knowing who is on your bench, who is left to bat in the 9th spot, what pitcher they might bring in to face who you have. Watching the AL there's none of that, it's auto-pilot. I don't even know where anyone is in their lineup after the second inning because it doesn't matter.
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Pinch Hitters in 2019:
Mets: .211 BA
Dodgers: .230 BA
The pirates led the NL with .319 PH BA.
So, in 2019, the Mets and Dodgers saw a marginal increase in chance of getting a hit when pinch hitting for a pitcher, and Pitt, the team that did it the most successfully likely didn’t win or lose any more games due to their strategy.
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Again you're focused on 1-2 plate appearances per team out of roughly 40, at the expense of a lot of strategy and an extra dimension to the whole game. And in those 1-2 plate appearances, the pitcher has a 80% chance of being an out instead of a 75% chance.
In every 9-inning game, the #9 spot comes up at least 3 times, with the only possible exception being the home team closing out a game in the top of the ninth.
The strategy of a manager figuring out which of his non-starting-caliber bench players to sub in for his interstate-batting average pitcher comes up a couple of times a game. The strategy needed by the pitcher and catcher to deal with a DH--who likely bats anywhere from 3rd to 6th--plus a lineup that never truly ends, just loops around--is all game long.
I truly can't understand anyone who thinks an 80+% out is entertaining.
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Pinch Hitters in 2019:
Mets: .211 BA
Dodgers: .230 BA
The pirates led the NL with .319 PH BA.
So, in 2019, the Mets and Dodgers saw a marginal increase in chance of getting a hit when pinch hitting for a pitcher, and Pitt, the team that did it the most successfully likely didn’t win or lose any more games due to their strategy.
It comes down to who and when in different situations, you really can't analyze it by macro numbers. Also add in a smart pitcher who knows how to put a bunt down, doesn't count for or against the average but moves a runner and can decide a game. Whether or not it works in a given situation, you need to know and use your bench, know and use your bullpen, know where you and the other team is in the lineup at that moment. More situations than I could list without being here all day, and again none of it even happens in the AL.
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That's because you watch the American League. Not trying to be glib but that's the whole game, this is my point.
I mean they're athletes, yes, but most of the game is them standing there and figuring out who is going to do what next. In the NL that means knowing who is on your bench, who is left to bat in the 9th spot, what pitcher they might bring in to face who you have. Watching the AL there's none of that, it's auto-pilot. I don't even know where anyone is in their lineup after the second inning because it doesn't matter.
Nah, I’ll argue this to the death, AL or NL.
Imo, the amount of influence the head coach has over the outcome of their sporting event:
1) Football
2) Basketball
3) Hockey
4) Baseball
The top 3 sports have:
1) Time management
Baseball doesn’t have a clock
2) Playcalls
Hit and Run or defensive shifts in baseball are laughable compared to the complexity of plays or schemes in other sports
3) Live, on the fly substitutions
Baseball managers have a whole 10-20 minutes to decide what pitcher they’re going with next. They only alter the lineup a max of a few times per night and the changes are permanent. All of the other coaches have to decide what players they want out there within split seconds
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In every 9-inning game, the #9 spot comes up at least 3 times, with the only possible exception being the home team closing out a game in the top of the ninth.
The strategy of a manager figuring out which of his non-starting-caliber bench players to sub in for his interstate-batting average pitcher comes up a couple of times a game. The strategy needed by the pitcher and catcher to deal with a DH--who likely bats anywhere from 3rd to 6th--plus a lineup that never truly ends, just loops around--is all game long.
I truly can't understand anyone who thinks an 80+% out is entertaining.
Again, you're focused on the pitcher's actual AB once or twice a game. Most pitchers don't go past the 5th or 6th inning anymore, and even if they do that's when they come out when their spot comes up. Or if the guy is throwing a great game it's another decision, another intrigue in the game that the AL doesn't have. To be a bench player in the NL means you are going to contribute to the game, so to say he's a "non-starting-caliber" player is also not correct, at least in the NL. And the more positions you can play the better chance you have to stay in the game because the 9th spot comes around again and you don't want to use up your whole bench.
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Nah, I’ll argue this to the death, AL or NL.
Imo, the amount of influence the head coach has over the outcome of their sporting event:
1) Football
2) Basketball
3) Hockey
4) Baseball
The top 3 sports have:
1) Time management
Baseball doesn’t have a clock
2) Playcalls
Hit and Run or defensive shifts in baseball are laughable compared to the complexity of plays or schemes in other sports
3) Live, on the fly substitutions
Baseball managers have a whole 10-20 minutes to decide what pitcher they’re going with next. They only alter the lineup a max of a few times per night and the changes are permanent. All of the other coaches have to decide what players they want out there within split seconds
Baseball vs other sports you're probably right, I know from managing softball you don't have a lot of control over anything.
But the DH argument is AL vs NL, not baseball vs every other sport. So if you mostly watch the AL, yeah, the manager can probably go home after sending his lineup out.
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Pinch Hitters in 2019:
Mets: .211 BA
Dodgers: .230 BA
The pirates led the NL with .319 PH BA.
So, in 2019, the Mets and Dodgers saw a marginal increase in chance of getting a hit when pinch hitting for a pitcher, and Pitt, the team that did it the most successfully likely didn’t win or lose any more games due to their strategy.
Piggybacking off this, I looked up "Wins Above Avg by Position." The top 5 teams for PH were:
- LAD (1.0)
- MIN (0.6)
- HOU (0.4)
- NYY (0.4)
- TBR (0.2)
Number 6 on the list is OAK, whose PH were worth -0.2 wins above average last year.
The vast majority of teams, and every NL team but the Dodgers, lost value with pinch hitters.
How about the DH position?
- MIN (2.9)
- HOU (2.8)
- TBR (1.0)
- LAA (0.8)
- KCR (0.4)
At 6 is BOS with 0.3, then LAD, MIL, TEX, ATL are tied with 0.1, then MIA, PIT, CIN, CHC, WSN, NYM are all at 0.0 before you start getting to negative values. And you have to go all the way down to 26 (BAL) before you get above -1.
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You can come up with and twist around any numbers you like. Nobody is trying to make the case that pitchers hit better than hitters, my point is a game with a pitchers' spot in the lineup is a lot more interesting, especially from the middle innings on.
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You can come up with and twist around any numbers you like. Nobody is trying to make the case that pitchers hit better than hitters, my point is a game with a pitchers' spot in the lineup is a lot more interesting, especially from the middle innings on.
And my point is, it's not.