Jet Offensive
Collegiate Football => The NFL Draft => Topic started by: Cane on December 22, 2014, 10:55:46 AM
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I'm making a thread only because the same question is going to be asked all over the place in random threads.
1. Can't do it
2. Nope, not here either.
3. ONLY if the Jets lose and the Jags win. If Jax loses, they get the 3rd pick.
4. The Jets are here right now. If they and the Jags lose, they are at pick 4. They are also 4 if the Jets, Oakland, and Washington all win.
5. The Jets can get this pick if they win, Oakland loses, and the Redskins win OR if they win, Oakland wins, and Washington loses.
6. This is the worst the Jets can do. They are 6 if they win and the Raiders and Skins both lose.
SOS leaves no issue, because ours can't dip below the Jags, and ours can't rise to the Raiders.
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I hope the Jets get the #6 pick because freak any idiot Jets fan that's openly rooting for a loss.
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I'd like to be as far away from Marcus Mariota as possible.
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I'd like to be as far away from Marcus Mariota as possible.
This + Jameis. I kind of liked being at 6 because we were out of shitty QB striking distance.
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I honestly don't understand the hate for this year's top quarterback prospects. I'd take either of them over any of the quarterbacks drafted in the last two years.
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I honestly don't understand the hate for this year's top quarterback prospects. I'd take either of them over any of the quarterbacks drafted in the last two years.
Based on what I thought predraft, Id have Mariota and Winston #7 and #8 over that span, both late first/early second rounders.
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Raiders play at Denver
Redskins play Cowboys at Home (Cowboys 7-0 on the road and trying to secure a 1st round bye)
Jaguars play at Texans
Jets beat Dolphins 21-17
I didn't expect Washington or Oakland to win this weekend, but I really don't expect them to win next weekend. I'd say the only shot we have at moving up is in Jax wins and we lose, but you never know.
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I honestly don't understand the hate for this year's top quarterback prospects. I'd take either of them over any of the quarterbacks drafted in the last two years.
Mariota has elite running ability. That's about it.
He plays in a system where he doesn't have to read, his arm isn't that strong, and he's not that accurate when he's targets are actually covered.
I don't think he's a bad player. He just isn't worth a top five pick.
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Based on what I thought predraft, Id have Mariota and Winston #7 and #8 over that span, both late first/early second rounders.
How is that even possible?
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How is that even possible?
There are six in the 2014 that could be considered better prospects
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I'd like to be as far away from Marcus Mariota as possible.
I know you were a fan of Johnny Manziel last year, and hate Mariota this year... Im pretty sure Manziel didnt do much presnap adjustments, reading a defense and going through reads (even when he got to the NFL he could barely look off his first read), so how do you like one and hate the other?
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There are six in the 2014 that could be considered better prospects
Werent you raving about Winston a month ago? Now AJ McCarron or Jimmy Garrapolo is better?
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I know you were a fan of Johnny Manziel last year, and hate Mariota this year... Im pretty sure Manziel didnt do much presnap adjustments, reading a defense and going through reads (even when he got to the NFL he could barely look off his first read), so how do you like one and hate the other?
I don't hate Marcus Mariota. I just don't see him as top prospect.
Johnny Manziel had a stronger arm and A&M uses a lot of pro-style passing concepts in their offense under Kevin Sumlin. That isn't happening at Oregon.
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How is that even possible?
Zach Mettenberger never raped anyone, bruh
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Werent you raving about Winston a month ago? Now AJ McCarron or Jimmy Garrapolo is better?
I like Jameis Winston as a first round QB. If I had to pick between him and Mariota, it'd be Winston 10 times out of 10.
Bortles, Carr, Garoppolo, Bridgewater, and maybe Thomas are on the same level when looking at physical abilities. It's not a ridiculous thing for Cane to say he has them ranked outside of his top five QBs in the past three seasons.
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I don't hate Marcus Mariota. I just don't see him as top prospect.
Johnny Manziel had a stronger arm and A&M uses a lot of pro-style passing concepts in their offense under Kevin Sumlin. That isn't happening at Oregon.
Its not happening are Oregon, but its not like Johnny was able to go through reads even if their were some pro-style concepts. And in todays NFL, who's to say whats a true pro-style offense... Chip Kelly is succeeding with the same (or a slightly adapted version due to personnel) system that Mariota played in. Jim Harbaugh ran the piston for some time due to Kaepernicks abilities (or inabilities). Kyle Shannahan adapted a system to RG3's skillset while he was a rookie, which many wouldnt consider a pro-style offense.
With the right coach, I wouldnt mind Mariota... but that again is highly dependent on the coach. With this current staff, Id have little faith in his development.
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Its not happening are Oregon, but its not like Johnny was able to go through reads even if their were some pro-style concepts. And in todays NFL, who's to say whats a true pro-style offense... Chip Kelly is succeeding with the same (or a slightly adapted version due to personnel) system that Mariota played in. Jim Harbaugh ran the piston for some time due to Kaepernicks abilities (or inabilities). Kyle Shannahan adapted a system to RG3's skillset while he was a rookie, which many wouldnt consider a pro-style offense.
With the right coach, I wouldnt mind Mariota... but that again is highly dependent on the coach. With this current staff, Id have little faith in his development.
I don't care about a pro-style offense. I care about being able to read an NFL defense.
Chip Kelly's offense is not the same in Philly. He cannot use the QB as a dual-threat option.
The threat of Mariota running against CFB teams is huge - it opens up so many options. The same can be said about Manziel. That isn't going to happen consistently in the NFL.
Manziel was making NFL throws into windows. Mariota doesn't do that too often.
If Gus Malzahn/Jim Harbaugh/Mark Helfrich was the HC and he wants Mariota, then fine. Anybody else...nah.
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Just because this team has a massive hole at QB doesn't mean we have to go out and draft a QB high.
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Johnny Manziel reads a defense by running around like a freaking goon for twenty minutes and chucking it up in the air for Mike Evans to bail him out. It's called the 13 year old playing Madden offense.
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Johnny Manziel reads a defense by running around like a freaking goon for twenty minutes and chucking it up in the air for Mike Evans to bail him out. It's called the 13 year old playing Madden offense.
Does that make Oregon the guy who spams cheap plays?
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Johnny Manziel reads a defense by running around like a freaking goon for twenty minutes and chucking it up in the air for Mike Evans to bail him out. It's called the 13 year old playing Madden offense.
hahahaha!
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the Jets are like... well, like.. if Geno Smith played madden
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The Jets draft position lately has been doggy style.
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I don't care about a pro-style offense. I care about being able to read an NFL defense.
Like you, I prefer Winston as a prospect over Mariota but I don't understand how you can say for certain that Mariota can't read an NFL defense when he hasn't played a single down in the NFL yet. For me, it's more useful to look at whether or not a college quarterback can consistently progress through his reads (which is what impresses me so much about Winston).
The threat of Mariota running against CFB teams is huge - it opens up so many options. The same can be said about Manziel. That isn't going to happen consistently in the NFL.
While this is certainly true, you can't say for a fact that he won't be able to consistently use his legs in the NFL when so many running quarterbacks have been finding success recently (particularly, Russell Wilson).
Manziel was making NFL throws into windows. Mariota doesn't do that too often.
I don't know how you define "making NFL throws into windows" but the truth is that no one is going to know for sure whether or not any of these quarterbacks can throw into tight windows in the NFL until they actually play in the NFL.
If Gus Malzahn/Jim Harbaugh/Mark Helfrich was the HC and he wants Mariota, then fine. Anybody else...nah.
If our new front office/head coach identifies any of the quarterbacks in this draft class as "their guy" they should do whatever it takes to acquire him. I'm not going to go to the extreme of predicting a quarterback that we draft will be a bust simply because of who we decided to hire as head coach.
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Like you, I prefer Winston as a prospect over Mariota but I don't understand how you can say for certain that Mariota can't read an NFL defense when he hasn't played a single down in the NFL yet.
I didn't say that he can't. I said that he doesn't and that will hurt him, especially coming to a team that will more than likely play him immediately.
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I didn't say that he can't. I said that he doesn't and that will hurt him, especially coming to a team that will more than likely play him immediately.
Perhaps he doesn't because he doesn't need to at Oregon? For all we know, he's perfectly capable of doing it and he'll show that once he starts going through pre-draft evaluations.
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While this is certainly true, you can't say for a fact that he won't be able to use his legs consistently in the NFL with the success that running quarterbacks have been having recently (particularly, Russell Wilson).
Russell Wilson is not looking to run first though.
Mariota has made some really great improvisational passes that were created with his legs, but Wilson is on another level mentally than just about any QB in the league except for Peyton Manning. That kid just gets football.
I don't know how one can strictly define "making NFL throws into windows"
A&M's passing scheme actually tests coverage consistently and their QBs throw to covered players.
Oregon's offense just tries to get the main read free so a big play can happen. Mariota's reads are being made from a press box.
If our new front office/head coach identifies any of the quarterbacks in this draft class as "their guy" they should do whatever it takes to acquire him.
Not if it requires multiple high draft picks, because the QBs in this class are not worth that much.
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Perhaps he doesn't because he doesn't need to at Oregon? For all we know, he's perfectly capable of doing it and he'll show that once he starts going through pre-draft evaluations.
Of course he didn't need to do it at Oregon...
It's going to take a lot of time to get him ready to play in another system. The only coach that could get him ready to go fairly quickly is Chip Kelly and they'd have to trade everything to come up for him.
And even if that happens, he'll probably be easily picked on early in Philly too.
The Arizona Wildcats messed with Mariota by taking away his first read. We've seen the same thing happen to Geno Smith in New York.
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Of course need to do it at Oregon...
It's going to take a lot of time to get him ready to play in another system. The only coach that could get him ready to go fairly quickly is Chip Kelly and they'd have to trade everything to come up for him.
And even if that happens, he'll probably be easily picked on early in Philly too.
The Arizona Wildcats messed with Mariota by taking away his first read. We've seen the same thing happen to Geno Smith in New York.
I'm saying that it's premature to say that he won't be able to adjust. Obviously, things aren't going to be as easy for him in the NFL as they are in college but that goes for everyone.
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I'm saying that it's premature to say that he won't be able to adjust. Obviously, things aren't going to be as easy for him in the NFL as they are in college but that goes for everyone.
I'm not saying that he cannot adjust, I'm just saying it will take time.
And if a team puts him out there before that adjustment is underway, he's screwed and it may not ever click.
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Like you, I prefer Winston as a prospect over Mariota but I don't understand how you can say for certain that Mariota can't read an NFL defense when he hasn't played a single down in the NFL yet. For me, it's more useful to look at whether or not a college quarterback can consistently progress through his reads (which is what impresses me so much about Winston).
Progress through reads... Which Winston.... doesn't do.
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I'm not saying that he cannot adjust, I'm just saying it will take time.
And if a team puts him out there before that adjustment is underway, he's screwed and it may not ever click.
While in a perfect world, Mariota would be allowed to sit for a season before seeing game action but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.
A top-5 pick is what it takes to acquire a quarterback with Mariota's sheer athletic upside and he'll have to either sink or swim with whichever team drafts him.
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A top-5 pick is what it takes to acquire a quarterback with Mariota's sheer athletic upside and he'll have to either sink or swim with whichever team drafts him.
Why did Colin Kaepernick go in the second round then?
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Progress through reads... Which Winston.... doesn't do.
He's been doing it since the first time he stepped foot on a college football field.
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Why did Colin Kaepernick go in the second round then?
He played in the Mountain West and didn't put up nearly the numbers that Mariota has in the Pac-12.
For the record, I think they're extremely similar prospects and, while Kaepernick was severely underdrafted, Mariota is far more likely to be overdrafted.
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He played in the Mountain West and didn't put up nearly the numbers that Mariota has in the Pac-12.
Kaepernick is the only QB in NCAA history to throw for 10,000+ yards and rush for 4,000+ yards in a career.
For the record, I think they're extremely similar prospects and, while Kaepernick was severely underdrafted, Mariota is far more likely to be overdrafted.
They are very similar prospects, but Kaepernick has a much stronger arm.
And why would you want to trade up for a player that you think will be overdrafted?
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Kaepernick is the only QB in NCAA history to throw for 10,000+ yards and rush for 4,000+ yards in a career.
He did that in one more season while Mariota was able to throw for 10k and run for 2k in three.
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He did that in one more season while Mariota was able to throw for 10k and run for 2k in three.
That doesn't change the fact that Colin Kaepernick is the only QB in NCAA history to put up the kind of yardage that he did.
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They are very similar prospects, but Kaepernick has a much stronger arm.
Mariota has a more accurate arm.
And why would you want to trade up for a player that you think will be overdrafted?
I never said that I want to trade up for Mariota and I said that he's more likely to be overdrafted than underdrafted.
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Does that make Oregon the guy who spams cheap plays?
Oregon is like standard Madden. The guy calling the plays reads the defense pre-snap and then tells the quarterback what to do. The only difference is the OC can't directly control his movement.
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Mariota has a more accurate arm.
I disagree.
Completion percentage has very little to do with it.
I never said that I want to trade up for Mariota and I said that he's more likely to be overdrafted than underdrafted.
You mentioned earlier that if our new front office and coaching staff find "their guy" they should do whatever it takes to get him.
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Oregon is like standard Madden. The guy calling the plays reads the defense pre-snap and then tells the quarterback what to do. The only difference is the OC can't directly control his movement.
but he certainly tries
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That doesn't change the fact that Colin Kaepernick is the only QB in NCAA history to put up the kind of yardage that he did.
If there was a re-draft of the 2011 draft today, there's no doubt in my mind that Kaepernick would be a 1st round pick.
He flew under the radar because he was seen as a developmental prospect who put up monster statistics against inferior competition.
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He flew under the radar because he was seen as a developmental prospect who put up monster statistics against inferior competition.
Kaepernick would be a top 10 pick if that draft was re-done. He put up huge numbers against just about everybody (PAC-10/12, ACC, WAC, MWC, BIG 12).
The offense that he played in scared teams away. He didn't take snaps under center/didn't drop and he usually read half the field.
He was seen as a developmental prospect. That's fair to him. Marcus Mariota should be seen the same way.
I do not want to use a top five pick on that kind of player.
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He was seen as a developmental prospect. That's fair to him. Marcus Mariota should be seen the same way.
I do not want to use a top five pick on that kind of player.
I wouldn't want to use a top five pick on Mariota if we intended to play him right away.
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I wouldn't want to use a top five pick on Mariota if we intended to play him right away.
I wouldn't want to use one on him if he sat, because we're wasting a chance at getting an elite player that can help start the rebuild in 2015. Not 2016 or 2017.
Get the pieces now and then plug in a QB when the supporting cast is already there.
Taking a developmental QB high over an elite WR or OT just doesn't sit right with me.
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I wouldn't want to use one on him if he sat, because we're wasting a chance at getting player that can help start the rebuild in 2015. Not 2016 or 2017.
Get the pieces now and then plug in a QB when the supporting cast is already there.
I disagree with this strategy. We tried that with Sanchez and the talent around him eroded by his third season.
I believe in drafting a franchise quarterback first and foremost and then letting him develop with the team around him.
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I disagree with this strategy. We tried that with Sanchez and the talent around him eroded by his third season
No, we did not. The Jets did not try to build through the draft when Sanchez was here.
Tannenbaum made trades for turd players/castoffs and then tried to replace them with other castoffs.
The WR corps and the OL constantly changed. There was no continuity for Sanchez. The WR corps was never established. We traded for guys during the season (Edwards) or traded for suspended players (Holmes). You don't get reps with those players.
There was no homegrown talent. If this team gets Amari Cooper or DaVante Parker, that WR is on this team for the next five years with Eric Decker, Jeremy Kerley, and Jace Amaro. You bring in QB and that player has a WR corps that will be in NY for years. That's how chemistry/timing/anticipation happen. Sanchez never had that.
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I disagree with this strategy. We tried that with Sanchez and the talent around him eroded by his third season.
That erosion was avoidable. It was the result of many poor decisions.
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I disagree with this strategy. We tried that with Sanchez and the talent around him eroded by his third season.
I believe in drafting a franchise quarterback first and foremost and then letting him develop with the team around him.
I believe in one hard and fast rule, if there's a QB available, you take him no matter what stage you are in. If he's the guy, there's nothing more valuable. It doesn't matter if it's one year down the line (Carson Palmer), four years down the line (Aaron Rodgers) or immediately (pick any number of recent guys) when he's ready he hits the field and you are in the right way.
If your guy isn't around, don't force a pick or reach for a guy (like Vikes for Ponder) you go get pieces to put around your guy eventually. But if he is sitting there waiting for us, don't pass him by simply because you might not think he has enough WRs or OL, you have the rest of the draft for that. You see a QB you want sitting there waiting for you, you take him no matter where you are in the rebuild.
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How is that even possible?
Easy. Teddy, Manziel, Mettenberger, Bortles, Carr, and Manuel. I'd say any of those guys are better prospects than either Mariota or Winston in my book. Mariota never progressed as a player, and Winston has made poor decisions with a consistency I've never seen from a top prospect.
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No, we did not. The Jets did not try to build through the draft when Sanchez was here.
Tannenbaum made trades for turd players/castoffs and then tried to replace them with other castoffs.
The WR corps and the OL constantly changed. There was no continuity for Sanchez. The WR corps was never established. We traded for guys during the season (Edwards) or traded for suspended players (Holmes). You don't get reps with those players.
There was no homegrown talent. If this team gets Amari Cooper or DaVante Parker, that WR is on this team for the next five years with Eric Decker, Jeremy Kerley, and Jace Amaro. You bring in QB and that player has a WR corps that will be in NY for years. That's how chemistry/timing/anticipation happen. Sanchez never had that.
I can't disagree with anything you just said. Tannenbaum made some awful trades and we never built through the draft while he was here (with the exception of 2006). My point, however, was that we'd been building the team that Sanchez was drafted to since 2006. Three years before Sanchez was drafted. I think that's too long to wait.
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I believe in one hard and fast rule, if there's a QB available, you take him no matter what stage you are in. If he's the guy, there's nothing more valuable. It doesn't matter if it's one year down the line (Carson Palmer), four years down the line (Aaron Rodgers) or immediately (pick any number of recent guys) when he's ready he hits the field and you are in the right way.
If your guy isn't around, don't force a pick or reach for a guy (like Vikes for Ponder) you go get pieces to put around your guy eventually. But if he is sitting there waiting for us, don't pass him by simply because you might not think he has enough WRs or OL, you have the rest of the draft for that. You see a QB you want sitting there waiting for you, you take him no matter where you are in the rebuild.
I can get behind this.
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I can't disagree with anything you just said. Tannenbaum made some awful trades and we never built through the draft while he was here (with the exception of 2006). My point, however, was that we'd been building the team that Sanchez was drafted to since 2006. Three years before Sanchez was drafted. I think that's too long to wait.
Well, we drafted Kellen Clemens in 2006. Then Eric Mangini blew his load for Brett Favre, so that slowed everything down.
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Well, we drafted Kellen Clemens in 2006. Then Eric Mangini blew his load for Brett Favre, so that slowed everything down.
Sometimes I wonder how that would have played out. Presumably with a healthy Chad we could have won the division in 2008. Mangini and Pennington both would have been Jets going into 2009. There's no telling which QB we would have eventually replaced Chad with after he would inevitably break down and Clemens inevitably sucking.
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If our new front office/head coach identifies any of the quarterbacks in this draft class as "their guy" they should do whatever it takes to acquire him.
RGIII?
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I wouldn't want to use one on him if he sat, because we're wasting a chance at getting an elite player that can help start the rebuild in 2015. Not 2016 or 2017.
Get the pieces now and then plug in a QB when the supporting cast is already there.
Taking a developmental QB high over an elite WR or OT just doesn't sit right with me.
You cant always assume theres going to be a QB in the future that can be plugged in right away. This team is likely in a rebuild (barring a massive offseason), so worrying about an immediate successful impact from a QB should not be the primary concern.
Many times that elite WR or OT may not even make an immediate impact right away either. There arent many times a team is in position to take a guy that is clearly ready, and recently the Colts are the only team that comes to mind. Otherwise the team is likely going to experience the growing pains of a rookie QB.
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You cant always assume theres going to be a QB in the future that can be plugged in right away. This team is likely in a rebuild (barring a massive offseason), so worrying about an immediate successful impact from a QB should not be the primary concern.
Yes, I can. Next year's potential QB class is much better than this one.
I'm not worried about the QB being successful immediately. I'm worried about him being successful for a long period of time. If he comes into a bad situation, like the one we have now, there's high bust potential...especially with a system QB.
I'm not expecting a rookie QB to be successful. I just don't want a player that has shown no signs of development in a system that's made him.
Many times that elite WR or OT may not even make an immediate impact right away either.
Amari Cooper/DeVante Parker
Andrus Peat/Brandon Scherff/Ronnie Stanley
Those prospects can play right away and help you right away. And they aren't going to become mentally broken like a QB that's in over his head.
There arent many times a team is in position to take a guy that is clearly ready, and recently the Colts are the only team that comes to mind. Otherwise the team is likely going to experience the growing pains of a rookie QB
The Seahawks got a guy that was immediately ready. Derek Carr was ready to go from day one as well.
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You guys want a QB so badly that you're just completely against anything else.
It is not what's best for the future of the franchise.
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You guys want a QB so badly that you're just completely against anything else.
It is not what's best for the future of the franchise.
Total, non-stop, dead on agreement.
Having an actual team of pros around a guy with a good head on his shoulders can produce a lot more wins both short and long term than rolling with a guy simply unprepared to play the game. E's said more than a few times in this thread how much damage can be done to a guy by a poor staff or a situation that isn't suited to him, and I don't think enough people really take that seriously.
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Sometimes I wonder how that would have played out. Presumably with a healthy Chad we could have won the division in 2008. Mangini and Pennington both would have been Jets going into 2009. There's no telling which QB we would have eventually replaced Chad with after he would inevitably break down and Clemens inevitably sucking.
Not sure if we can presume that.
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Not sure if we can presume that.
It's a pretty safe one as far as assumptions go.
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Next year's potential QB class is much better than this one.
There's no guarantee that we'll be in a position to draft a quarterback again next year and what exactly makes next year's class so much better than this one? Christian Hackenberg?
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There's no guarantee that we'll be in a position to draft a quarterback again next year and what exactly makes next year's class so much better than this one? Christian Hackenberg?
No, but there is a guarantee that there will be better NFL talent available.
Hackenberg isn't even top five in that class for me, but he still has a chance to be a very good prospect.
Jared Goff
Connor Cook
Gunner Kiel
Jeremy Johnson
Trevone Boykin
Cody Kessler
Will Gardner
Wes Lunt
Nate Sudfeld
John Robertson
Jacoby Brissett
Jacob Coker
This mindset got us Geno Smith.
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No, but there is a guarantee that there will be better NFL talent available.
Hackenberg isn't even top five in that class for me, but he still has a chance to be a very good prospect.
Jared Goff
Connor Cook
Gunner Kiel
Jeremy Johnson
Trevone Boykin
Cody Kessler
Will Gardner
Wes Lunt
Nate Sudfeld
John Robertson
Jacoby Brissett
Jacob Coker
It will be interesting to see how many of those quarterbacks actually start games in the NFL. Cook is the only one who would be a 1st round pick if he declared for this draft and he'd still be behind Mariota and Winston.
Most of the quarterbacks you mentioned are underclassmen so it's far too early to predict whether or not they'll pan out better than the quarterbacks in this class.
This mindset got us Geno Smith.
Geno was a value pick in the 2nd round when we weren't sure if we wanted to continue with Sanchez as our starter. Very few people thought that he would be our franchise quarterback.
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It will be interesting to see how many of those quarterbacks actually start games in the NFL. Cook is the only one who would be a 1st round pick if he declared for this draft and he'd still be behind Mariota and Winston.
Jared Goff is more talented than any QB in the past three drafts.
Jeremy Johnson is probably going to end up being one of the best QBs in all of college football now that Nick Marshall is gone from Auburn.
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Geno was a value pick in the 2nd round when we weren't sure if we wanted to continue with Sanchez as our starter. Very few people thought that he would be our franchise quarterback.
Except the Jets, who gave him every last opportunity to win the job in 2013 when he had no business being on the field and then letting him roll into 2014 uncontested.
I don't think anyone who didn't want Geno gives a excrement about value. I don't want to pay anything for a product I don't want.
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Geno was a value pick in the 2nd round when we weren't sure if we wanted to continue with Sanchez as our starter. Very few people thought that he would be our franchise quarterback.
It was false value because some people, like you, think because a guy throws the ball he needs to have his value boosted a round. Taking Geno was just another step in the Jets refusal to build a complete roster.
Top 40 pick, but let's take a guy who probably isn't going to be apart of the team's future. If you don't think a guy is the guy and you draft him in the first two rounds, what are you doing?
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If you don't think a guy is the guy and you draft him in the first two rounds, what are you doing?
being the Jets
I know you're talking about QBs here, but look at our second round picks since 2000:
2000: none
2001: Lamont Jordan
2002: Jon McGraw
2003: Victor Hobson
2004: none
2005: Mike Nugent and Justin Miller
2006: Kellen Clemens
2007: Davis Harris
2008: none
2009: none
2010: Vladimir Ducasse
2011: none
2012: Stephen Hill
2013: Geno Smith
2014: Jace Amaro
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It was false value because some people, like you, think because a guy throws the ball he needs to have his value boosted a round. Taking Geno was just another step in the Jets refusal to build a complete roster.
Top 40 pick, but let's take a guy who probably isn't going to be apart of the team's future. If you don't think a guy is the guy and you draft him in the first two rounds, what are you doing?
The converse of this is also true, if you think a guy is the guy and he's there with you on the clock and you don't take him, what the hell are you doing?
That's partially what you guys are advocating we do. You are saying pass on Winston and Mariota because next years class could be better. If our staff (whoever they may be) think that Jameis Winston is the guy, they sure as freak better draft him.
Geno smith was also part of the worst QB class in 20 something years. We need better decision making skills up top, but Heismanburg is right, the thinking of anything but Sanchez got us Geno. We need to go and bring in somebody via FA so that we arent pressured to draft a QB, and only take a guy we really want.
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I was going to stop at 2006, but I kept going back and kept sucking
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being the Jets
I know you're talking about QBs here, but look at our second round picks since 2006:
2006: Kellen Clemens
2007: David Harris
2008: none
2009: none
2010: Vladimir Ducasse
2011: none
2012: Stephen Hill
2013: Geno Smith
2014: Jace Amaro
atrocious
none is a better pick than at least 3 of those players
and it only got worse past the edits...
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David Harris was a solid player for a long time. He had his flaws, but he was a longterm starter. It's pretty bad that he's easily our best second round pick of the 2000s though.
Jace Amaro can hopefully become a longterm starter at TE for us.
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Easy. Teddy, Manziel, Mettenberger, Bortles, Carr, and Manuel. I'd say any of those guys are better prospects than either Mariota or Winston in my book. Mariota never progressed as a player, and Winston has made poor decisions with a consistency I've never seen from a top prospect.
EJ Manuel?
yeah, no.
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Jared Goff is more talented than any QB in the past three drafts.
I like Goff a lot but I'm not ready to anoint him as the best quarterback prospect since Luck.
Jeremy Johnson is probably going to end up being one of the best QBs in all of college football now that Nick Marshall is gone from Auburn.
"Probably" isn't the same as a sure thing. Jacob Coker could be the best quarterback in the SEC next season even though he spent three years getting beaten out by A.J. "Jameis" McCarron and Blake Sims.
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"Probably" isn't the same as a sure thing. Jacob Coker could be the best quarterback in the SEC next season even though he spent three years getting beaten out by A.J. McCarron and Blake Sims.
lol
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Jacob Coker could be the best quarterback in the SEC next season even though he spent three years getting beaten out by A.J. McCarron and Blake Sims.
He's only played one season for Alabama.
Please, continue to tell me more about these prospects though.
"HE GOT BEAT OUT BY THE GUY IN MY AVATAR FIRST!"
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He's only played one season for Alabama.
Please, continue to tell me more about these prospects though.
"HE GOT BEAT OUT BY THE GUY IN MY AVATAR FIRST!"
My bad. I forgot he transferred to Bama. He's still spent his entire college career to date getting beaten out.
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I like Goff a lot but I'm not ready to anoint him as the best quarterback prospect since Luck.
That guy certainly isn't in the 2015 NFL Draft
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That guy certainly isn't in the 2015 NFL Draft
You said the last three drafts. That includes 2012, 13, and 14.
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My bad. I forgot he transferred to Bama. He's still spent his entire college career to date getting beaten out.
That's not true, but ok.
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You said the last three drafts. That includes 2012, 13, and 14.
I meant 2013, 2014, and 2015.
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Except the Jets, who gave him every last opportunity to win the job in 2013 when he had no business being on the field and then letting him roll into 2014 uncontested.
I don't think anyone who didn't want Geno gives a excrement about value. I don't want to pay anything for a product I don't want.
It was false value because some people, like you, think because a guy throws the ball he needs to have his value boosted a round. Taking Geno was just another step in the Jets refusal to build a complete roster.
Top 40 pick, but let's take a guy who probably isn't going to be apart of the team's future. If you don't think a guy is the guy and you draft him in the first two rounds, what are you doing?
I wasn't condoning the Geno pick. He was an extremely risky second round pick that unfortunately (and unsurprisingly) didn't work out. Why do you think we're (god willing) getting a new front office?
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That's not true, but ok.
What's not true about it? He started his career as a backup to E.J. Manuel at FSU and then failed to beat out Jameis Winston for the starting job before transferring to Alabama to get beaten out once again by Blake Sims.
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If our new front office deems that a quarterback in this draft class is worth hitching our wagon to then we should do it. It shouldn't have anything to do with being desperate for a quarterback or prioritizing building a complete team prior to taking a quarterback. If the quarterback is there, you have to take him. End of story.
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What's not true about it? He started his career as a backup to E.J. Manuel and then failed to beat out Jameis Winston for the starting job at FSU before transferring to Alabama to get beaten out once again by Blake Sims.
He wasn't going to come in and compete with EJ Manuel as a true freshman. It's why he was redshirted.
True freshman don't just come in and compete for starting jobs right away.
He did get beat out by Winston and Sims, but he hasn't been beat out his entire career. He's 0-2 in QB competitions, and might be 0-3 if Alabama lets Cooper Bateman get a shot at it.
However, if he wins that job, he'll have a solid shot at being drafted pretty high...especially if Lane Kiffin stays.
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If the quarterback is there, you have to take him. End of story.
Not when that QB isn't worth it.
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He wasn't going to come in and compete with EJ Manuel as a true freshman. It's why he was redshirted.
True freshman don't just come in and compete for starting jobs right away.
He did get beat out by Winston and Sims, but he hasn't been beat out his entire career. He's 0-2 in QB competitions, and might be 0-3 if Alabama lets Cooper Bateman get a shot at it.
However, if he wins that job, he'll have a solid shot at being drafted pretty high...especially if Lane Kiffin stays.
He competed with and lost to Winston and Sims. I never meant to imply that he lost a competition to Manuel. He's yet to start a game so either way he's been a career backup.
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He competed with and lost to Winston and Sims. I never meant to imply that he lost a competition to Manuel. He's yet to start a game so either way he's been a career backup.
Why does this matter?
Blake Sims was a career backup up until this season and he's got a great chance at finishing his career as a national champion. And he's not a very good pro prospect either.
Coker has potentially elite tools if given a chance. Hopefully he'll get one in 2015, because he's shown flashes when they've let him play.
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Not when that QB isn't worth it.
It's ultimately the front office's responsibility to determine whether or not a quarterback is worth investing a premium draft choice in. Unfortunately, our front office has been failing to live up to this responsibility for a very very long time.
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The converse of this is also true, if you think a guy is the guy and he's there with you on the clock and you don't take him, what the hell are you doing?
That's partially what you guys are advocating we do. You are saying pass on Winston and Mariota because next years class could be better. If our staff (whoever they may be) think that Jameis Winston is the guy, they sure as freak better draft him.
I agree on the principle, I just can't imagine a team thinking that.
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Why does this matter?
Blake Sims was a career backup up until this season and he's got a great chance at finishing his career as a national champion. And he's not a very good pro prospect either.
Coker has potentially elite tools if given a chance. Hopefully he'll get one in 2015, because he's shown flashes when they've let him play.
It started because you threw out a very long list of quarterbacks with at least as many (if not more) question marks than either Mariota or Winston.
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"Probably" isn't the same as a sure thing. Jacob Coker could be the best quarterback in the SEC next season even though he spent three years getting beaten out by A.J. "Jameis" McCarron and Blake Sims.
Haha. DRAFT!!!
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It started because you threw out a very long list of quarterbacks with at least as many (if not more) question marks than either Mariota or Winston.
At least those guys play like freshmen and sophomores when they have time left in college to develop, not when they're entering the draft.
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Haha. DRAFT!!!
If someone were to make an image macro out of this, whose picture would they use?
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It started because you threw out a very long list of quarterbacks with at least as many (if not more) question marks than either Mariota or Winston.
A kid that has never played a meaningful snap of college football has as many question marks as two dudes that won the Heisman Trophy...
Pretty much says it all.
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A kid that has never played a meaningful snap of college football has as many question marks as two dudes that won the Heisman Trophy...
Pretty much says it all.
You're completely missing the point. You're assuming that the quarterbacks you listed will be better prospects a year from now than the quarterbacks that are in this draft.
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You're completely missing the point.
You haven't made a point. You want us to draft a late first to early second round level prospect in the top six simply because he's a quarterback.
You're speculating that the quarterbacks you named will be better prospects a year from now than the quarterbacks that are in this draft.
That isn't speculation. Jared Goff is already a better pro prospect than Winston and Mariota.
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You're completely missing the point. You're assuming that the quarterbacks you listed will be better prospects a year from now than the quarterbacks that are in this draft.
Yeah. Those guys have a year to get better. Winston and Mariota don't.
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You haven't made a point. You want us to draft a late first to early second round level prospect in the top six simply because he's a quarterback.
I don't agree with you that Winston and Mariota are late first to early second round level prospects and I never said that I wanted to draft either one of them simply because they're quarterbacks.
That isn't speculation. Jared Goff is already a better pro prospect than Winston and Mariota.
You're right. It's your opinion.
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The chances of us getting a Luck level prospect any time soon is slim to none. If we think Jameis or Mariota is the guy than there's no reason not to go for it. We actually have something resembling acceptable pass catchers now, o-line can be improved in FA. Note: this somewhat depends on who the new Jets coach is
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The chances of us getting a Luck level prospect any time soon is slim to none.
Two are potentially out there:
Max Browne at USC and Keller Chryst at Stanford
I really hope Kessler decided to leave early so Browne can play next year. It won't happen though.
If Kyle Allen continues to develop at TAMU, he'll be a big time prospect too.
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Note: this somewhat depends on who the new Jets coach is
It entirely depends on who the coach is.
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Two are potentially out there:
Max Browne at USC and Keller Chryst at Stanford
I really hope Kessler decided to leave early so Browne can play next year. It won't happen though.
If Kyle Allen continues to develop at TAMU, he'll be a big time prospect too.
Brad Kaaya has a chance to be really special as a prospect.
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Brad Kaaya has a chance to be really special as a prospect.
The U needs to kick Clemson out of Florida so they can get those homegrown WRs for Kaaya.
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Yes, I can. Next year's potential QB class is much better than this one.
I'm not worried about the QB being successful immediately. I'm worried about him being successful for a long period of time. If he comes into a bad situation, like the one we have now, there's high bust potential...especially with a system QB.
I'm not expecting a rookie QB to be successful. I just don't want a player that has shown no signs of development in a system that's made him.
Next years crop is always better... It happens every year. In 2012, everyone was talking about Landry Jones, Logan Thomas, Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson. In 2013, Teddy Bridgewater was a cant miss prospect, Aaron Murray, AJ McCarron, Zach Mettenberger were all looked at as solid prospects that could land in the first round. Last year, Winston was the hands down best prospect in the class, Petty, Hundley were both thought of highly. Now Im not saying you in particular, but each year the draft community everywhere is so interested in the class next year, specifically for QBs, and every year many of those QBs never live up to expectations
I just have a hard time looking to next year. If there's a QB who's available at the pick that has a shot at being an above average player, Id have a hard time passing
The Seahawks got a guy that was immediately ready. Derek Carr was ready to go from day one as well.
The Seahawks struck gold. No one knew what Wilson would be, and no team can count on striking gold at QB with any pick outside of the top half of the first round. In the past 10 years, Rodgers and Wilson are about the only QBs that have turned out to be good players that werent top 16 picks.
I cant really speak to Carr- its still too early IMO and I havent watched him.
As for Amari Cooper- I like him a lot, but Im not sure he's a top 4-5 talent. Id honestly rather trade back for Kevin White. If we end up reaching (or what appears like reaching in my eyes), Id rather reach for the most important position in all of sports. I havent watched any of the OTs so I cant really form much an opinion on them yet...
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Nobody thought 2013 was going to be better than 2012.
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Next years crop is always better... It happens every year. In 2012, everyone was talking about Landry Jones, Logan Thomas, Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson. In 2013, Teddy Bridgewater was a cant miss prospect, Aaron Murray, AJ McCarron, Zach Mettenberger were all looked at as solid prospects that could land in the first round. Last year, Winston was the hands down best prospect in the class, Petty, Hundley were both thought of highly. Now Im not saying you in particular, but each year the draft community everywhere is so interested in the class next year, specifically for QBs, and every year many of those QBs never live up to expectations
I just have a hard time looking to next year. If there's a QB who's available at the pick that has a shot at being an above average player, Id have a hard time passing
he Seahawks struck gold. No one knew what Wilson would be, and no team can count on striking gold at QB with any pick outside of the top half of the first round. In the past 10 years, Rodgers and Wilson are about the only QBs that have turned out to be good players that werent top 16 picks.
I cant really speak to Carr- its still too early IMO and I havent watched him
Now we're lowering the bar to above average player? That's all it will take for us to draft a QB in the top 6 and ignore guys with more talent?
You guys want to know a secret? This isn't Ancient Greece. Guys aren't going to do well in the NFL simply because it is their fate to do so. Quarterbacks develop or do not develop based upon the coaching they receive and how well they fit into a system. Colin Kaepernick was about as raw a prospect there could be, he didn't deserve to go in the first round because 90% of coaches would have gotten nothing out if him. Harbaugh fixed him. It's that simple.
It's more true with QBs than any other position because the mental side of the game is far more significant. We've seen guys crumble based upon that alone (it's why I short changed Derek Carr last year). That's why when you look at prospects, you want the guys who have the quickest road to get to respectability as a player. I see things comparing Mariota to Kaepernick and I think that's not good at all for Mariota. I see Jameis making consistent freshman mistakes and I think that's not good for Jameis.
Could those guys turn into good players? Of course. Physically there is nothing wrong with Jameis, he could be Big Ben. But unless you have a great offensive staff it won't happen. Guys don't just get better at the QB position, people make them better.
That brings us to coaching. Everything depends on the guys we bring in. Do I think that either it worth it in the top ten? No, but I'd feel a lot better if we bring in an offensive staff with a pedigree doing something with quarterbacks.
My hope would be that instead of rushing to get a QB, they spend a year developing and evaluating talent, and see what they have for 2016 so they aren't just tossing a young QB into a roster they don't yet understand.
Do people overhype the following year's class? Yeah, of course. They are projecting guys to hit a certain level of development. I can recall a conversation between E and I on here where I was praising Mariota's raw skill at the beginning of last season, and E basically said we'll see if he gets any better. He didn't. And he still hasn't.
Those guys in next year's class could bomb out, but I'll tell you that several of them have the potential, if they develop, to show everything they need to go top ten/five/whatever. We project, they try to reach the mark. I put Logan #1 back when he showed flashes as a sophomore. I knew Logan fell apart as a junior, so I didn't keep him as the top guy. I dropped him to the 2/3 round in my mind, figuring he could snap out of it. He didn't, so he dropped again. The problem comes in when people never adjust their evaluation because they just assume they were projected because they are can't miss.
As for Amari Cooper- I like him a lot, but Im not sure he's a top 4-5 talent. Id honestly rather trade back for Kevin White. If we end up reaching (or what appears like reaching in my eyes), Id rather reach for the most important position in all of sports. I havent watched any of the OTs so I cant really form much an opinion on them yet...
What's wrong with Amari? I see a lot of people say that he's overrated, yet rarely do they give a reason.
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What's wrong with Amari? I see a lot of people say that he's overrated, yet rarely do they give a reason.
I wouldn't have any problem with taking Amari with our first pick but I kind of understand the mindset that he's not worth that pick. They just don't see a dominant WR in him, like Andre, Fitz, Megatron, Green, etc.
Of course we don't really know how good he'll turn out to be but I'd happily grab him since he'd be our #1 and the first true #1 guy we've had in a long time.
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I wouldn't have any problem with taking Amari with our first pick but I kind of understand the mindset that he's not worth that pick. They just don't see a dominant WR in him, like Andre, Fitz, Megatron, Green, etc.
It's honestly the kind of thing people say when they don't know what they're talking about. They have to give me specifics other than "eh, I've seen better." I see speed, size, strength, acceleration, hands, routes. Everything. He's not 6'3, but this isn't 2003 when 1st round meant only taking the guys who were 6'4, 210. This kid is a more physically gifted version of Reggie Wayne, a guy who has caught 1,000 balls in his career. He could bust, I just think he's a high ceiling, high floor player.
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It's honestly the kind of thing people say when they don't know what they're talking about. They have to give me specifics other than "eh, I've seen better." I see speed, size, strength, acceleration, hands, routes. Everything. He's not 6'3, but this isn't 2003 when 1st round meant only taking the guys who were 6'4, 210. This kid is a more physically gifted version of Reggie Wayne, a guy who has caught 1,000 balls in his career. He could bust, I just think he's a high ceiling, high floor player.
Well put. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd be disappointed that we took Cooper. Unless Winston somehow delivers a performance over the next two games so great that it eliminates all doubt, but I'm not expecting that.
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No, but there is a guarantee that there will be better NFL talent available.
Hackenberg isn't even top five in that class for me, but he still has a chance to be a very good prospect.
Jared Goff
Connor Cook
Gunner Kiel
Jeremy Johnson
Trevone Boykin
Cody Kessler
Will Gardner
Wes Lunt
Nate Sudfeld
John Robertson
Jacoby Brissett
Jacob Coker
This mindset got us Geno Smith.
we need to draft Gunner Kiel based on name alone
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It's honestly the kind of thing people say when they don't know what they're talking about. They have to give me specifics other than "eh, I've seen better." I see speed, size, strength, acceleration, hands, routes. Everything. He's not 6'3, but this isn't 2003 when 1st round meant only taking the guys who were 6'4, 210. This kid is a more physically gifted version of Reggie Wayne, a guy who has caught 1,000 balls in his career. He could bust, I just think he's a high ceiling, high floor player.
I was a massive proponent of taking a WR ever since Dez came out and have been hoping for a legitimate one ever since. I do like Cooper a lot, but I preferred Sammy and Evans (as Im pretty sure you have said as well). I think he's got most of the total package, but Im just not sure if he can play the big game as a WR. I need to go back and see how he does with contested balls.
Beckham was smaller, but he could still play the big game and come down with contested balls... Thats why Steve Smith was one of my comparisons during last year.
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we need to draft Gunner Kiel based on name alone
Wasn't he the lead singer in Nelson?
Pwwwcheeee!!!
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I was a massive proponent of taking a WR ever since Dez came out and have been hoping for a legitimate one ever since. I do like Cooper a lot, but I preferred Sammy and Evans (as Im pretty sure you have said as well). I think he's got most of the total package, but Im just not sure if he can play the big game as a WR. I need to go back and see how he does with contested balls.
Beckham was smaller, but he could still play the big game and come down with contested balls... Thats why Steve Smith was one of my comparisons during last year.
...the big game?
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Now we're lowering the bar to above average player? That's all it will take for us to draft a QB in the top 6 and ignore guys with more talent?
That brings us to coaching. Everything depends on the guys we bring in. Do I think that either it worth it in the top ten? No, but I'd feel a lot better if we bring in an offensive staff with a pedigree doing something with quarterbacks.
My hope would be that instead of rushing to get a QB, they spend a year developing and evaluating talent, and see what they have for 2016 so they aren't just tossing a young QB into a roster they don't yet understand.
Whos an above average QB in the NFL? Id consider Romo, Rivers, Ben, Cam and probably Matt Ryan and Stafford above average QBs... I think you can win a SB with these type of players. Obviously Id love for a Peyton, Luck or Rodgers, but thats like drafting a DE and expecting him to be JJ Watt. Having a good QB is just about as valuable as any other player aside from some very few elites.
I 100% agree on the coaching aspect. That has basically been my whole argument- the coach will dictate my stance on if we should draft a QB. If the right coach comes in here and thinks Mariota or Winston is there guy, Id be okay with that. For instance, if Harbaugh comes here and wants Mariota, Id full support that. Developing talent largely lies on the HC, and thats why I think Rex has to go.
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Wasn't he the lead singer in Nelson?
Pwwwcheeee!!!
"Afterrrr the Rain"
(http://media.giphy.com/media/Fflz8wk1Z9HAQ/giphy.gif)
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...the big game?
Like the bigger bodied game- make contested catches, be a red zone threat, go over the middle... Dez Bryant is essentially the epitome of this. OBJ has been doing a great job at this too even being a small guy. Ive only seen a few Bama games this year so I have to go back and watch more of Amari, and this is the one thing I'll be wanting to see.
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Like the bigger bodied game- make contested catches, be a red zone threat, go over the middle... Dez Bryant is essentially the epitome of this. OBJ has been doing a great job at this too even being a small guy. Ive only seen a few Bama games this year so I have to go back and watch more of Amari, and this is the one thing I'll be wanting to see.
He destroys people on RZ fade routes
And he goes over the middle consistently. The kid caught 115 passes playing the majority of his games against SEC opponents.
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"Afterrrr the Rain"
(http://media.giphy.com/media/Fflz8wk1Z9HAQ/giphy.gif)
Can't live withooooout yo' luuuuuv!!
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/4812876/wwe-heat-pyro-o.gif)
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Whos an above average QB in the NFL? Id consider Romo, Rivers, Ben, Cam and probably Matt Ryan and Stafford above average QBs...
How on earth did these QBs develop without an offensive HC?
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How on earth did these QBs develop without an offensive HC?
WR talent
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WR talent
I wont dispute that, and I have always been a massive proponent of having legitimate WRs.
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How on earth did these QBs develop without an offensive HC?
All four had offensive coordinators who had head coaching experience and good offensive staffs working with them. Match that with talent on the offense and a dedication to a system and guys can develop.
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Like the bigger bodied game- make contested catches, be a red zone threat, go over the middle... Dez Bryant is essentially the epitome of this. OBJ has been doing a great job at this too even being a small guy. Ive only seen a few Bama games this year so I have to go back and watch more of Amari, and this is the one thing I'll be wanting to see.
Coop knows how to use his body as well as the bigger guys. Watch the fade routes and the slants he runs. He's smarter than most and as the body control to hurt people anywhere on the field. ODB was a freak/is a freak. I had him #7 overall last year, and would put Cooper right there. This class is weaker at the top, so he'll end up higher.
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I've seen people talking about the Jets luck with the chance for us to have the 4th pick in the draft, and Winston, Mariotta, and Cooper to all be off the board.
That'd be pretty freaking terrible
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I've seen people talking about the Jets luck with the chance for us to have the 4th pick in the draft, and Winston, Mariotta, and Cooper to all be off the board.
That'd be pretty freaking terrible
The draft is so far away, who knows who the top 4 will be. Every year it changes drastically from the end of the season. One of them might fall out of the first round altogether by then for all we know.
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I've seen people talking about the Jets luck with the chance for us to have the 4th pick in the draft, and Winston, Mariotta, and Cooper to all be off the board.
That'd be pretty freaking terrible
No, it wouldn't. We shouldn't want either of those QBs in the top 5.
Amari Cooper would be a nice pick, but if all three are gone, that means we'll get the best OT in the draft.
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No, it wouldn't. We shouldn't want either of those QBs in the top 5.
Amari Cooper would be a nice pick, but if all three are gone, that means we'll get the best OT in the draft.
But this means what?
Getting rid of a pretty good left tackle who has another 3 to 5 years left? (and is under contract for a while)
Or drafting a guy in the top 5 to play guard/right tackle for 3-5 years or so before moving him to left tackle?
I think it would make more sense to draft a right tackle with our second pick, and see if he could potentially move to the left side in a few years
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No, it wouldn't. We shouldn't want either of those QBs in the top 5.
Amari Cooper would be a nice pick, but if all three are gone, that means we'll get the best OT in the draft.
It's sad that we could learn from what Jerry Jones did. But it's true.
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But this means what?
Getting rid of a pretty good left tackle who has another 3 to 5 years left? (and is under contract for a while)
Or drafting a guy in the top 5 to play guard/right tackle for 3-5 years or so before moving him to left tackle?
I think it would make more sense to draft a right tackle with our second pick, and see if he could potentially move to the left side in a few years
You draft a guy that had the potential to be a left tackle. Where he plays initially doesn't matter too much. The intent is that he's a left tackle that can be a long term player there.
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It's sad that we could learn from what Jerry Jones did. But it's true.
Jerry Jones lucked his way into a top QB and elite wide receiver as well.
We could draft the best offensive linemen in the league every year, but we still won't have a top 10 QB and top 5 wr like Dallas does
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You draft a guy that had the potential to be a left tackle. Where he plays initially doesn't matter too much. The intent is that he's a left tackle that can be a long term player there.
But drafting a long term solution at a position that the guy likely wouldn't play until he gets a new contract isn't the most efficient way to use resources.
If tackle is bpa you certainly have to consider it, but I'd much rather just trade out (assuming the offers there).
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But drafting a long term solution at a position that the guy likely wouldn't play until he gets a new contract isn't the most efficient way to use resources.
If tackle is bpa you certainly have to consider it, but I'd much rather just trade out (assuming the offers there).
If you think Brick will be a LT here in 4 years...........
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Jerry Jones lucked his way into a top QB and elite wide receiver as well.
We could draft the best offensive linemen in the league every year, but we still won't have a top 10 QB and top 5 wr like Dallas does
How is drafting Dez Bryant lucky?
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How is drafting Dez Bryant lucky?
I was thinking he was drafted far earlier than he was.
Never mind that
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Jerry Jones lucked his way into a top QB and elite wide receiver as well.
We could draft the best offensive linemen in the league every year, but we still won't have a top 10 QB and top 5 wr like Dallas does
I'm not talking about Romo or Dez. I'm talking about taking linemen early instead of trying to replace Romo too soon.
You'll never have a top QB if you put him behind a sketchy line. He'll get Carr'd.
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I'm not talking about Romo or Dez. I'm talking about taking linemen early instead of trying to replace Romo too soon.
You'll never have a top QB if you put him behind a sketchy line. He'll get Carr'd.
And a top QB will make a shakey line look like a top line.
Denver, new England, green bay aren't known for having elite offensive lines.
Peyton was tearing excrement up with stopgaps off the street
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And a top VETERAN QB will make a shakey line look like a top line.
Denver, new England, green bay aren't known for having elite offensive lines.
Peyton was tearing excrement up with stopgaps off the street
FYP.
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If you think Brick will be a LT here in 4 years...........
Brick will likely start 3 more years.
The 4th year could be hit or miss
Of course the biggest factor is going to be his contract not his age.
Because there's no freaking way we're paying him 13 million in 2017.
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Brick will likely start 3 more years.
The 4th year could be hit or miss
Ferguson has fallen a cliff. It's time to find his replacement now while the team is rebuilding.
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But drafting a long term solution at a position that the guy likely wouldn't play until he gets a new contract isn't the most efficient way to use resources.
If tackle is bpa you certainly have to consider it, but I'd much rather just trade out (assuming the offers there).
In the scenario you tossed out its either an OL or a defensive player. The fanbase might well revolt if we go defense.
Secondly I doubt it would be two full seasons before Brick is shuffled around on the OL and the new guy takes the LT role.
If you think Brick will be a LT here in 4 years...........
Exactly, Brick could shift to the right side in 2 years as his decline continues. Or he might be able to shift inside for the end of his career. I'm no OL expert, but if he's capable of being an elite LT for as long as he was, I'd have to imagine he could pick up the technique to play inside to finish out his career.
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Ferguson has fallen a cliff. It's time to find his replacement now while the team is rebuilding.
I do agree with that.
I just don't think doing it in the top 5 this year makes the most sense.
The way his contract is structured he's very likely to start at least two more years with the potential for more.
And it's hard to tell how bad your OL is, when you have the single worst QB in the league, and a rotating door at left guard
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And I didnt consider the brick going to the right side idea
I guess the next question is how much of Bricks falling off is because of our left guard spot being terrible
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And I didnt consider the brick going to the right side idea
I guess the next question is how much of Bricks falling off is because of our left guard spot being terrible
It's not like Ferguson is going to get any better. He's only going to decline. It's time to start moving on from him, Mangold, and Harris. Their time is up.
Mangold and Ferguson can still be serviceable players, but not for much longer.
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Well luckily for us your opinion means nothing.
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I do agree with that.
I just don't think doing it in the top 5 this year makes the most sense.
The way his contract is structured he's very likely to start at least two more years with the potential for more.
And it's hard to tell how bad your OL is, when you have the single worst QB in the league, and a rotating door at left guard
Where else are you going to get a top LT.? It's the same argument as a QB. You want a great one, you gotta take him early in the draft. If the QBs are gone, look to grab a lineman. Our line has serious troubles and putting actually players on it would be a good thing.
Consider our OL could look like this next year
Rookie top 5 pick -Giacomini-Mangold-Winters-Brick
Or it could look like this
Brick-Winters-Mangold-Aboushi-Giacomini
I know which one I prefer next year, and for a few years after that as well
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Where else are you going to get a top LT.? It's the same argument as a QB. You want a great one, you gotta take him early in the draft. If the QBs are gone, look to grab a lineman. Our line has serious troubles and putting actually players on it would be a good thing.
Consider our OL could look like this next year
Rookie top 5 pick -Giacomini-Mangold-Winters-Brick
Or it could look like this
Brick-Winters-Mangold-Aboushi-Giacomini
I know which one I prefer next year, and for a few years after that as well
The rookie would likely start out on the right side or guard if it's Brandon Scherff.
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Brick will likely start 3 more years.
The 4th year could be hit or miss
Of course the biggest factor is going to be his contract not his age.
Because there's no freaking way we're paying him 13 million in 2017.
If you are talking about 2017, that is the 3rd year, not the 4th. 2015 is next year.
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Where else are you going to get a top LT.? It's the same argument as a QB. You want a great one, you gotta take him early in the draft. If the QBs are gone, look to grab a lineman. Our line has serious troubles and putting actually players on it would be a good thing.
Consider our OL could look like this next year
Rookie top 5 pick -Giacomini-Mangold-Winters-Brick
Or it could look like this
Brick-Winters-Mangold-Aboushi-Giacomini
I know which one I prefer next year, and for a few years after that as well
In your first scenario you're talking about multiple guys playing new positions.
Would you want to develop a young QB behind a rookie LT, a guy newly moved to right tackle, and a tackle freshly moved to guard?
With the contract structures of our OL, I don't see why you don't grab a guy in the second (where you can still get great prospects) and take your time developing him (being that Giacomini and D'Brickashaw are locked up). Best case scenario he's a future left tackle, worst and he's either a right tackle or depth.
It's certainly possible we draft a left tackle early, I just don't think it's the most likely scenario
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In your first scenario you're talking about multiple guys playing new positions.
Would you want to develop a young QB behind a rookie LT, a guy newly moved to right tackle, and a tackle freshly moved to guard?
With the contract structures of our OL, I don't see why you don't grab a guy in the second (where you can still get great prospects) and take your time developing him (being that Giacomini and D'Brickashaw are locked up). Best case scenario he's a future left tackle, worst and he's either a right tackle or depth.
It's certainly possible we draft a left tackle early, I just don't think it's the most likely scenario
If we take an OL top 5 we aren't playing a rookie QB next year, we might be developing a later round pick, but certainly not another start a rookie QB situation. So in this scenario we would sign a vet to just hold the fort for a year or two, thus allowing our OL to gel and learn their new positions. Secondly we haven't drafted a second round player in 10 years that's been worth a god damn aside from David Harris, do you really expect us to draft a useful second round OL? I don't.
My point is, if the guys you really want are gone, then looking to build up your offensive line is the next best option assuming a trade down doesn't happen. I mean when's the last time we traded down in the first round? Have we done it 10 years? 15?
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If we take an OL top 5 we aren't playing a rookie QB next year, we might be developing a later round pick, but certainly not another start a rookie QB situation. So in this scenario we would sign a vet to just hold the fort for a year or two, thus allowing our OL to gel and learn their new positions. Secondly we haven't drafted a second round player in 10 years that's been worth a god damn aside from David Harris, do you really expect us to draft a useful second round OL? I don't.
My point is, if the guys you really want are gone, then looking to build up your offensive line is the next best option assuming a trade down doesn't happen. I mean when's the last time we traded down in the first round? Have we done it 10 years? 15?
I'll point out that we traded about half our second round picks over that time frame, and Amaro doesn't seem like a bad one by any means.
And it also doesn't really matter what kind of garbage we drafted, considering that we've overhauled our scouting/GM position quite a bit, with another on the horizon.
Hell Hill and Vlad were both purely projects too, guys who had freakish athletic gifts despite wildly lacking in talent.
Not to mention this second round pick will be a very early one, versus a mid to late round 2nd
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Jerry Jones lucked his way into a top QB and elite wide receiver as well.
We could draft the best offensive linemen in the league every year, but we still won't have a top 10 QB and top 5 wr like Dallas does
Tony Romo is playing with a wire coat hanger keeping his spine together. He's done really well this year, but the tread on his tires is wearing down at a faster rate.
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Tony Romo is playing with a wire coat hanger keeping his spine together. He's done really well this year, but the tread on his tires is wearing down at a faster rate.
Hes 34 and still playing at a high level
He might not last till 40, but i dont see why he wont last till 37ish which seems appropriate for a QB
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Hes 34 and still playing at a high level
He might not last till 40, but i dont see why he wont last till 37ish which seems appropriate for a QB
His back is fucked. It would take an act of god or some fancy moves on the operating table for him to last another 3 seasons.
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The Jets taking a tackle immediately makes the line better and gives us a future at the position. If the best value is there, then it should be the pick.
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His back is fucked. It would take an act of god or some fancy moves on the operating table for him to last another 3 seasons.
If he gets through next season unscathed I'd be surprised
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If we take an OL in the top 5 that tells me that this team is entering a long-term rebuild since that pick will see little to no playing time at the LT position. Giacomini and Brick will be the tackles for at least the next two years barring injury.
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If he gets through next season unscathed I'd be surprised
the guy is getting injections into his back before every game.
The Jets taking a tackle immediately makes the line better and gives us a future at the position. If the best value is there, then it should be the pick.
I'm all for rebuilding the oline. If we land a decent stopgap QB in FA or via trade, i'd advocate even harder for an OL pick in the 1st round.
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If we take an OL in the top 5 that tells me that this team is entering a long-term rebuild since that pick will see little to no playing time at the LT position. Giacomini and Brick will be the tackles for at least the next two years barring injury.
That's remarkably optimistic.
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That's remarkably optimistic.
Why is that?
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Why is that?
Because we could easily take someone who could outplay either. Both guys are replaceable now, so I see no reason why a year from now a second year top pick couldn't be a better option.
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His back is fucked. It would take an act of god or some fancy moves on the operating table for him to last another 3 seasons.
What about an act of fancy?
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Because we could easily take someone who could outplay either. Both guys are replaceable now, so I see no reason why a year from now a second year top pick couldn't be a better option.
Because of their contracts (D'Brickashaw just reworked his contract like a year ago, and I believe it would be more expensive for us to cut him than keep him next year)
Unless we're gonna pay them to ride the bench
Neither guy is too old, D'Brickashaw just turned 31 I think, and Breno is 29
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His back is fucked. It would take an act of god or some fancy moves on the operating table for him to last another 3 seasons.
Romos back injury (this year) is identical to Cam Newton's and from what I can gather it's not a big deal (apparently it's a rather rare injury). Also completely unrelated to his other back injury
Romos prior back injury was a herniated disc, which I'm sure a freak ton of football players have had and managed to deal with.
If anything I'd think the injuries/surgeries Peyton Manning had were far more serious than Romos.
Although Romo gets hurt far more often, the injuries don't seem connected (lots of broken ribs, fingers etc)
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I'll also point out that Gronkowski had the same surgery as Romo twice.
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Romos back injury (this year) is identical to Cam Newton's and from what I can gather it's not a big deal (apparently it's a rather rare injury). Also completely unrelated to his other back injury
Romos prior back injury was a herniated disc, which I'm sure a freak ton of football players have had and managed to deal with.
If anything I'd think the injuries/surgeries Peyton Manning had were far more serious than Romos.
Although Romo gets hurt far more often, the injuries don't seem connected (lots of broken ribs, fingers etc)
Spoken like someone who's never had a back injury and is 100% clueless on the subject matter.
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Spoken like someone who's never had a back injury and is 100% clueless on the subject matter.
Whether I or you ever had a back injury is irrelevant. Because our experiences would likely be extremely different from professional athletes who are in incredible shape, and have all the resources of billion dollar organizations and access to literally the best doctors and medical care in the entire world.
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Whether I or you ever had a back injury is irrelevant. Because our experiences would likely be extremely different from professional athletes who are in incredible shape, and have all the resources of billion dollar organizations and access to literally the best doctors and medical care in the entire world.
You just wrote off a back injury as "not a big deal".
As per standard JO procedure, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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You just wrote off a back injury as "not a big deal".
As per standard JO procedure, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I wrote off a transverse process fracture as not a bad deal, after I looked it up on the Internet.
http://heavy.com/sports/2014/12/transverse-process-fracture-cam-newton-panthers-spine-back-injury-car-crash/
Maybe it's not I who doesn't know what he's talking about
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You do realize that Cam Newton is a lot younger and his physical stature is different than romo's...right?
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You do realize that Cam Newton is a lot younger and his physical stature is different than romo's...right?
One of the surgeons for the article even says this
"Transverse process Fracture is more like a muscle tear than a bone fracture. Time to heal is faster!"
It's not your typical back injury
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One of the surgeons for the article even says this
"Transverse process Fracture is more like a muscle tear than a bone fracture. Time to heal is faster!"
It's not your typical back injury
You also realize that this isnt Romo's only back injury, right?
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You also realize that this isnt Romo's only back injury, right?
Which it also says is completely unrelated to the other.
And this part again
"Transverse process Fracture is more like a muscle tear than a bone fracture!"
Regardless since I'm not interested in having this circle jerk argument all night, I think we could both agree that Peytons neck and back injuries were far more serious. And he's still going strong, excrement he had the best season of any QB all time
Of course Peyton doesn't get hit remotely nearly as much as Romo
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Maybe you should put "Troy Aikman" in your webcrawler search engine... check out his multiple unrelated back injuries, and how they ended his career prematurely.
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Maybe you should put "Troy Aikman" in your webcrawler search engine... check out his multiple unrelated back injuries, and how they ended his career prematurely.
What kind of surgery did Aikman have on his back?
What kind of injury?
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What kind of surgery did Aikman have on his back?
What kind of injury?
Lemme check his medical files. Brb
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Lemme check his medical files. Brb
Why bring up the comparison, if there's no information?
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Why bring up the comparison, if there's no information?
Because Aikman and Romo on going down similar paths. Similar injuries, similar age, similar circumstances.
unlike your comparison with Cam Newton.
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Because Aikman and Romo on going down similar paths. Similar injuries, similar age, similar circumstances.
unlike your comparison with Cam Newton.
How is the injury/surgery similar if we don't know what they are? (in Aikmans case)
The only known similarities between the two is they were white QB's who played for Dallas
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How is the injury/surgery similar if we don't know what they are? (in Aikmans case)
The only known similarities between the two is they were white QB's who played for Dallas
Lol..you're not getting the point.
Although it's not stopping you from comparing a QB who's a lot younger and in better physical shape
And peyton manning...who suffered a neck injury
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Lol..you're not getting the point.
Although it's not stopping you from comparing a QB who's a lot younger and in better physical shape
I'm comparing the specific injury, which the treatment for is practically do nothing rest and relax.
Yes Newton is younger, and black.
But this injury is
"Transverse process Fracture is more like a muscle tear than a bone fracture"
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I'm comparing the specific injury, which the treatment for is practically do nothing rest and relax.
Yes Newton is younger, and black.
But this injury is
"Transverse process Fracture is more like a muscle tear than a bone fracture"
Thats not Romo's only injury to his back.
Forget it, you're clearly in the clouds on this one. Im done.
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Thats not Romo's only injury to his back.
Forget it, you're clearly in the clouds on this one. Im done.
I'll also add that Manning had a diskectomy of the spine (albeit the higher part of his spine in his neck)
Which was the same surgery Romo had on his spine (albeit the lower part in his back)
Although Manning had fusions and other excrement far more significant in addition to it
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Since you seem to be on WebMD at the moment, can you tell me more about why I was in the hospital getting, as my surgeon put it, my nerves untangled. He couldn't give me a specific reason or prognosis to my long term recovery, but maybe you could.
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Since you seem to be on WebMD at the moment, can you tell me more about why I was in the hospital getting, as my surgeon put it, my nerves untangled. He couldn't give me a specific reason or prognosis to my long term recovery, but maybe you could.
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What was the surgery?
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This thread is gold, Dr. Dcm.